JoceAndChris
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Oh more replies will reply properly - thanks guys.
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JoceAndChris
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Hmm, not sure I fully understand those posts, but thanks! A fall? I don't really get that. What's meant by a fall? The gutter is 14 metres long on the west side, 14 metres long on the east, and 6 metres on the south and north. Like a giant bungalow.
I don't really get how FF's roof grew by 60 mm either Gareth! Will look at some pics of this foil stuff!
Malcolm I'm sorry your roofers were disappointing - could you say how? I agree tradesmen often say something is impossible when they don't know how to do it.
And plastic - I'm kind of struggling to understand how, if there was a big flood in the attic from a malfunctioning well pump, which unfortunately has happened, much to my total horror as it poured into my beautiful fabric tent room, stuff would dry if a space blanket were draped over. I think ( hope) we've eliminated that problem which was something about an overflow switch but nevertheless I want to know moisture in that vast roof space has a way out. Right now it's so windy in there you could dry laundry. All the roofers have said those winds will stop.
I don't really get how FF's roof grew by 60 mm either Gareth! Will look at some pics of this foil stuff!
Malcolm I'm sorry your roofers were disappointing - could you say how? I agree tradesmen often say something is impossible when they don't know how to do it.
And plastic - I'm kind of struggling to understand how, if there was a big flood in the attic from a malfunctioning well pump, which unfortunately has happened, much to my total horror as it poured into my beautiful fabric tent room, stuff would dry if a space blanket were draped over. I think ( hope) we've eliminated that problem which was something about an overflow switch but nevertheless I want to know moisture in that vast roof space has a way out. Right now it's so windy in there you could dry laundry. All the roofers have said those winds will stop.
JoceAndChris
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Ps the ceilings are a right mix. Mainly lime and reed above but some modern plasterboard too. Xx
Flyfisher
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Gareth Hughes said:
I've been looking for the original sketch but can't find it. Surprisingly the LBC application only had a written description.
The insulation is not really like a 'space blanket', it's a 30mm sandwich of foil, foam, wadding and other layers: http://www.siginsulation.co.uk/Literature/TS10_InstallationGuidelines_251007.pdf
Flyfisher
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Feltwell said:
Joints coinciding with steps in the gutter is more understandable, though whether such steps are practical over long lengths of guttering would be another issue. Perhaps Doug will clarify all.
As for Joce's guttering, here's a possibly daft idea. As I recall, the main visible characteristic of the guttering is that it is structurally wooden and lined with lead for waterproofing purposes, with all the reliability and maintenance problems arising. Assuming the lead lining is invisible (and I may well be wrong about that) would it be possible to strip out all the lead, make good any decay in the basic wooden guttering structure and then line the repaired 'channels' with the sort of materials used on flat roofs? This should provide reliable waterproofing completely invisible at ground level and indistinguishable from the existing lead-lined structure. Just thinking aloud.
Gareth Hughes
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JoceAndChris said:
Although the house in its entirety fits into a 14 x 6m rectangle, the longest length of actual gutter is 6m on the north side over the scullery roof. All the other sections of gutter are shorter than that, the four next longest all being about 4.5m. I just throw that in in case anyone is about to come up with a fully worked out description of exactly what the falls ought to be and how long each run can be.
(Edit - except that I was forgetting there are only four downpipes so the longest run is more like 8m)
88v8
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Could the external wood be used merely as an external skin surrounding a different gutter type?
Longbottom do a selection of cast-iron box gutters.
Feltwell's point, a friend has re-covered his flat roof with some form of external rubber membrane, 25 year gtee. But in the life of a historic building, 25 years is not so long really.
Well pump in the attic... duh???? Non comprendo... Is this pump bringing water in, or getting rid of it?
Your pump probably relies on an integral float switch to activate it. Occasionally that switch will stick and the pump will not operate or will not stop. The first back-up is a level alarm, activated by a separate switch, but that is no help unless you are at home and can take action and there is some means of containing the misplaced water meanwhile.
Float switches are cheapcheapcheap, you could have a stack of them with alarms at each level. But if you're away for two weeks......
Your tent room... arrrgh.
Ivor
Longbottom do a selection of cast-iron box gutters.
Feltwell's point, a friend has re-covered his flat roof with some form of external rubber membrane, 25 year gtee. But in the life of a historic building, 25 years is not so long really.
Well pump in the attic... duh???? Non comprendo... Is this pump bringing water in, or getting rid of it?
Your pump probably relies on an integral float switch to activate it. Occasionally that switch will stick and the pump will not operate or will not stop. The first back-up is a level alarm, activated by a separate switch, but that is no help unless you are at home and can take action and there is some means of containing the misplaced water meanwhile.
Float switches are cheapcheapcheap, you could have a stack of them with alarms at each level. But if you're away for two weeks......
Your tent room... arrrgh.
Ivor
DJH
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Did someone call? 
A belated Happy new year to everyone and I hope we all finish the jobs we intend to this year... 8)
It's good to catch up with your news Joce although it looks like this could be an expensive year for you at BC. I can't really argue with the points raised so far although I have to admit I raised an eyebrow at the comment about 2 metre lengths being insanity nowadays!
Lead lined wooden eaves chuting or gutters have always presented problems especially when they occur in long lengths as, over a short time, the lead lining will tend to leak through fatigue cracks caused when the lead buckles through expansion when subjected to sunlight as I'm sure you are already aware. Another point of failure can be in the joints used such as welts or laps and welded joints which can and will fail in time. Building paper is a much more suitable underlay than rubber which, should a leak occur or there is an ingress of water or moisture it will be trapped and then there is a strong possibility of underside corrosion of the lead lining. I recall that elm was the timber of choice for wooden eaves gutters.
As mentioned before, the lengths that lead can be used is determined by it's thickness so the thicker the lead the longer length can be used. Code 8 for example can be used up to 3 metres in length although it must be taken into account that this is based on it being laid on a sloping substrate and fixed at one end to prevent slippage or creep. It follows then that a piece of lead used in a situation such as in an eaves gutter with little or no fall, that fixings are not required so it can expand freely in both directions. I have lined gutters like this with lengths of lead well over the recommended sizes without fixings with success, although I should mention that the lead just sat in the the gutter and I used cover strips or flashings to weather the edges.
Another method is, as mentioned, the use of neoprene expansion joints which are welded in position at the ends of the lengths of lead pertaining to the thickness used. There used to be an expansion joint that came with a lead strip attached so that in situations where an unsightly joint was not acceptable it could be masked by this cover. Alternatively a cover strip could be used if the lead lining just sat in the gutter.
In the situation where the gutter is very long, such as the 8 meter length Gareth mentions another solution is, depending of course on the depth of the gutter, the use of fillet of timber to raise the bottom of the gutter to form a drip , preferably of 50 mm height, so that shorter lengths of lead can be used to allow expansion. This is not always possible but, bearing in mind that the highest part od a gutter takes the smallest amount of water it could well be a solution.
Stainless steel, as a modern option, laid in lengths to suit the run of gutter is another alternative as it can be laid in very long pieces. Again I would suggest a lead cover strip to maintain the Period look.
Doug
A belated Happy new year to everyone and I hope we all finish the jobs we intend to this year... 8)
It's good to catch up with your news Joce although it looks like this could be an expensive year for you at BC. I can't really argue with the points raised so far although I have to admit I raised an eyebrow at the comment about 2 metre lengths being insanity nowadays!
Lead lined wooden eaves chuting or gutters have always presented problems especially when they occur in long lengths as, over a short time, the lead lining will tend to leak through fatigue cracks caused when the lead buckles through expansion when subjected to sunlight as I'm sure you are already aware. Another point of failure can be in the joints used such as welts or laps and welded joints which can and will fail in time. Building paper is a much more suitable underlay than rubber which, should a leak occur or there is an ingress of water or moisture it will be trapped and then there is a strong possibility of underside corrosion of the lead lining. I recall that elm was the timber of choice for wooden eaves gutters.
As mentioned before, the lengths that lead can be used is determined by it's thickness so the thicker the lead the longer length can be used. Code 8 for example can be used up to 3 metres in length although it must be taken into account that this is based on it being laid on a sloping substrate and fixed at one end to prevent slippage or creep. It follows then that a piece of lead used in a situation such as in an eaves gutter with little or no fall, that fixings are not required so it can expand freely in both directions. I have lined gutters like this with lengths of lead well over the recommended sizes without fixings with success, although I should mention that the lead just sat in the the gutter and I used cover strips or flashings to weather the edges.
Another method is, as mentioned, the use of neoprene expansion joints which are welded in position at the ends of the lengths of lead pertaining to the thickness used. There used to be an expansion joint that came with a lead strip attached so that in situations where an unsightly joint was not acceptable it could be masked by this cover. Alternatively a cover strip could be used if the lead lining just sat in the gutter.
In the situation where the gutter is very long, such as the 8 meter length Gareth mentions another solution is, depending of course on the depth of the gutter, the use of fillet of timber to raise the bottom of the gutter to form a drip , preferably of 50 mm height, so that shorter lengths of lead can be used to allow expansion. This is not always possible but, bearing in mind that the highest part od a gutter takes the smallest amount of water it could well be a solution.
Stainless steel, as a modern option, laid in lengths to suit the run of gutter is another alternative as it can be laid in very long pieces. Again I would suggest a lead cover strip to maintain the Period look.
Doug
DJH
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Here's a little job I did just before Christmas for friends. Code 6 lead covering and Code 5 fabricated gutter because that's the only lead I could get from suppliers. The code 6 was special order as it's not stocked as a matter of course here. I had a bit of a job with both the builders and my arthritis but we got there with some tidying up to be done when it stops raining. I didn't use any patination oil as there is nothing to stain or spoil from carbonate run off and the lead will soon attain it's natural silver grey patina.
The gutter is sitting on 50 mm wide stainless brackets for now but I'll slip some stainless sheet under it at some stage when I get a round tuit 8) to prevent it sagging and give it something flat and smooth to expand on if we get any sun this year. There are no fixings holding it to the fascia and just short pieces of 15 mm pipe soldered to the insides from front to back to help keep it's shape.
Sorry about the ghostly figure in the window... :shock:
Doug
The gutter is sitting on 50 mm wide stainless brackets for now but I'll slip some stainless sheet under it at some stage when I get a round tuit 8) to prevent it sagging and give it something flat and smooth to expand on if we get any sun this year. There are no fixings holding it to the fascia and just short pieces of 15 mm pipe soldered to the insides from front to back to help keep it's shape.
Sorry about the ghostly figure in the window... :shock:
Doug
Feltwell
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Doug, that looks fantastic. I really want to jack my office job in and become a proper craftsman in something! Just for the pleasure in seeing permanent - well, long lived at least - reminders of my work. Something more satisfying than contributing to an entry in someone's annual accounts!
All the more reason that someone does it who knows what they are doing. Doesn't mean they have to be good at decorative work, but they still need to be a good leadworker. That functioning plain old gutter does a much more important job than any piece of fancy decorative lead - It has consequences for the rest of the building if it doesn't work.
JoceAndChris said:
All the more reason that someone does it who knows what they are doing. Doesn't mean they have to be good at decorative work, but they still need to be a good leadworker. That functioning plain old gutter does a much more important job than any piece of fancy decorative lead - It has consequences for the rest of the building if it doesn't work.
JoceAndChris
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Ooh yes that is a beautiful piece of work Doug - thanks for sharing and for the informative post as well. I'll run those ideas past the lead guy. Whatever is done is going to be highly visible simply because of the height of the cottage and the height of the garden in parts. It needs to be right from a functional and aesthetic viewpoint. There's no fall that I can see ( so water pools in these gutters) and the angle of the curve is shallow, nothing like the shape of any guttering you can buy.
I'm now pretty decided against the roofer who was talking about lining the whole thing in rubber. He just didn't inspire confidence. The roofer who did beautiful National Trust's Stoneywell has at last sent his quote - 27, 595 plus VAT. I think we'll go for this as I felt full confidence in him.
He brought a lead guy and being so clueless I wasn't able to talk to him about the details of the job at all.
The lead guy has sent a separate quote and it doesn't go into details
" supply and dress lead to gutters, dormer and semi circular bay. Clear away all rubbish and leave site clean and tidy.
Labour and materials £9734 plus VAT.
Trusting the above meets with you approval... "
I'll talk to him about lining the gutters with builders paper.
Many thanks.
I'm now pretty decided against the roofer who was talking about lining the whole thing in rubber. He just didn't inspire confidence. The roofer who did beautiful National Trust's Stoneywell has at last sent his quote - 27, 595 plus VAT. I think we'll go for this as I felt full confidence in him.
He brought a lead guy and being so clueless I wasn't able to talk to him about the details of the job at all.
The lead guy has sent a separate quote and it doesn't go into details
" supply and dress lead to gutters, dormer and semi circular bay. Clear away all rubbish and leave site clean and tidy.
Labour and materials £9734 plus VAT.
Trusting the above meets with you approval... "
I'll talk to him about lining the gutters with builders paper.
Many thanks.
DJH
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Hmm…that quote is a bit brief Joce! I would have at least expected something along the lines of…
All work and materials used to be carried out in accordance with BS and the recommendations of the Lead Sheet Association as published in the latest edition of the Rolled Lead Sheet Manual…..
Carefully remove and set aside existing lead covering to dormer window, semi-circular bay roof and eaves gutters and credit the final account with the scrap value minus reasonable costs…….
Inspect the condition of the substrate and advise any areas of replacement or repairs needed before new lead is fitted. Check and measure for adequate falls to flat areas and gutters and advise on how to obtain falls in the eaves gutters where practical……..
Code 6 lead to be used for the dormer cheeks with Code 4 soakers handed to the roofer for the abutment of the slates to the dormer and Code 5 lead for valleys…...
Code 8 lead to be used for the eaves gutter lining with Code 6 cover flashing to the front edge of gutter neatly trimmed and clipped to maintain a good appearance. The use of expansion joints may well be necessary to allow expansion of the lead gutter linings. These will be used where there is no alternative such as being unable to obtain falls and drips by inserting timber fillets in the bottom of the gutter…...
A separating membrane of building paper or geotextile underlay will be fitted where appropriate…..
If you can’t get something like this from him then maybe you should consider giving him a specification of how you require the work to be carried out.
I’ve got a friend in Cambridgeshire I can highly recommend but, as is the case with most men like him, he’s always busy!
Doug
All work and materials used to be carried out in accordance with BS and the recommendations of the Lead Sheet Association as published in the latest edition of the Rolled Lead Sheet Manual…..
Carefully remove and set aside existing lead covering to dormer window, semi-circular bay roof and eaves gutters and credit the final account with the scrap value minus reasonable costs…….
Inspect the condition of the substrate and advise any areas of replacement or repairs needed before new lead is fitted. Check and measure for adequate falls to flat areas and gutters and advise on how to obtain falls in the eaves gutters where practical……..
Code 6 lead to be used for the dormer cheeks with Code 4 soakers handed to the roofer for the abutment of the slates to the dormer and Code 5 lead for valleys…...
Code 8 lead to be used for the eaves gutter lining with Code 6 cover flashing to the front edge of gutter neatly trimmed and clipped to maintain a good appearance. The use of expansion joints may well be necessary to allow expansion of the lead gutter linings. These will be used where there is no alternative such as being unable to obtain falls and drips by inserting timber fillets in the bottom of the gutter…...
A separating membrane of building paper or geotextile underlay will be fitted where appropriate…..
If you can’t get something like this from him then maybe you should consider giving him a specification of how you require the work to be carried out.
I’ve got a friend in Cambridgeshire I can highly recommend but, as is the case with most men like him, he’s always busy!
Doug
JoceAndChris
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Thank you Doug. That's hugely helpful. I'll be sure when the time comes to run through all of that.
Feltwell
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Joce, just a thought on your attic bedroom. It's a spare room used occasionally for visitors only, is that right? I wonder if an approach where you insulate under that room, leaving it to be cold (bear with me!) might be an easier approach. If it's only used occasionally, when you have visitors you could heat it with electric heaters and suffer the temporary heat loss. You could perhaps still insulate it but to a lesser degree, so you preserve the visibility of your beams.
Is this an option, to fully insulate under the room?
Insulation is tricky if you've a complex roof - it's been a right pain here and is still far from being right. My parent's 1950's bungalow took about 2 hours and minimal cost to fully insulate the roof!
Is this an option, to fully insulate under the room?
Insulation is tricky if you've a complex roof - it's been a right pain here and is still far from being right. My parent's 1950's bungalow took about 2 hours and minimal cost to fully insulate the roof!
dandrew
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Crikey Joce £12k for guttering when you add in the VAT.
Where I live in Sheffield the gutters are traditionally softwood because in the days of industrialization the smoke coming out of all the foundries made the rain acidic, which corroded standard cast iron gutters.
Unlined softwood gutters are the norm, and the roofer that did mine (he was a William Morris Craft fellow from SPAB), advised to paint the sides, bottoms and backs with as many coats of linseed paint as I could manage but to leave the inside unpainted. The logic is that there is no paint to crack/leak and therefore the water that penetrates can evaporate and dry out. The anticipated lifespan is 75 years as long as the outside is maintained. All joints between sections of guttering (longest length is about 4m) were 100m lap joints caulked with linseed oil putty.
The current gutters are only 3 years old, so time will tell regarding lifespan, but when I was up on the roof over the summer they looked as good as new - something to think about ?
David
Where I live in Sheffield the gutters are traditionally softwood because in the days of industrialization the smoke coming out of all the foundries made the rain acidic, which corroded standard cast iron gutters.
Unlined softwood gutters are the norm, and the roofer that did mine (he was a William Morris Craft fellow from SPAB), advised to paint the sides, bottoms and backs with as many coats of linseed paint as I could manage but to leave the inside unpainted. The logic is that there is no paint to crack/leak and therefore the water that penetrates can evaporate and dry out. The anticipated lifespan is 75 years as long as the outside is maintained. All joints between sections of guttering (longest length is about 4m) were 100m lap joints caulked with linseed oil putty.
The current gutters are only 3 years old, so time will tell regarding lifespan, but when I was up on the roof over the summer they looked as good as new - something to think about ?
David
Lewis Tiffany
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Have a look at http://www.tlxinsulation.co.uk/products/tlx-gold/how-to-install/cad-drawings/
Breathable multi foil use with PIR foil board insulation
Cut and fitted between rafters onto the existing ceiling
From the outside
Breathable multi foil use with PIR foil board insulation
Cut and fitted between rafters onto the existing ceiling
From the outside
Feltwell
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There was a lot of controversy a few years ago as to if multi-foil insulations worked in the real world as well as they claimed, what the latest is on that I don't know. I see with that product they seem to be saying you need to allow an air gap underneath then rigid foam insulation to get the required U value - which in Joce's case will I think rather defeat the point.
Joce, notwithstanding the option of "naked" gutters as David describes, as Doug says stainless steel is worth considering. You could cover it with lead but it will dull down and tarnish over time anyway, will you really notice it that much?
Alternatively you could get totally fed up of the whole thing, sell Beacon Cottage and buy a thatched cottage, and be free from the tyranny of guttering choices forever! :wink:
Joce, notwithstanding the option of "naked" gutters as David describes, as Doug says stainless steel is worth considering. You could cover it with lead but it will dull down and tarnish over time anyway, will you really notice it that much?
Alternatively you could get totally fed up of the whole thing, sell Beacon Cottage and buy a thatched cottage, and be free from the tyranny of guttering choices forever! :wink:
DJH
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Copper is an alternative but still expensive option along with zinc but I would still favour lead of course...
It's important that the correct thickness of lead is fitted in the various locations (such as Code 8 in the gutters) to allow for expansion and contraction and to keep an eye open to ensure that the correct lead is used. It's not widely known I suspect that the codes (thickness) of lead sheet is identified by the colour of the tape used to secure the free edge of the rolls the lead comes in.
Green = Code 3, Blue = Code 4, Red = Code 5, Black = Code 6, White = Code 7, Black = Code 8.
I was told many years ago that... Good Boys Remember Black With Orange (Green Blue Red Black White Orange)...is a way of remembering the colours so you should be able to see at a glance Joce what lead is being used where... 8)
Doug
It's important that the correct thickness of lead is fitted in the various locations (such as Code 8 in the gutters) to allow for expansion and contraction and to keep an eye open to ensure that the correct lead is used. It's not widely known I suspect that the codes (thickness) of lead sheet is identified by the colour of the tape used to secure the free edge of the rolls the lead comes in.
Green = Code 3, Blue = Code 4, Red = Code 5, Black = Code 6, White = Code 7, Black = Code 8.
I was told many years ago that... Good Boys Remember Black With Orange (Green Blue Red Black White Orange)...is a way of remembering the colours so you should be able to see at a glance Joce what lead is being used where... 8)
Doug