Insulating north wall advice... it's freezing in here!

[JonP]

Hello all,

A bit of background:
If you've read any of my previous posts you'll know I'm quite the novice at this and once again I come to the Property Gurus here for some advice.

The Somerset ex-watermill we live in was built in 1780 / 1800 ish. Some 30 years ago the place was rescued from its life as a chicken house and turned into a showroom for a fireplace company. Then about 16 years ago, I think, it became a home. We moved in at the end of May 2008 and have been considering which bits we should tackle first, as the place is quite livable.

We're just going through the excitement of figuring out which companies will recieve our hard earned cash to fix the leaky roof and replace the awful louvred windows with some that let in a little less breeze, flora, fauna, etc. While we work that out, we're looking at how to make best use of the rest of the living space while keeping the kind of 'industrial' feel the building once had and deserves to have restored where we can afford it and it's practial to do so.

My question(s) today:

The main bedroom has a north facing wall and when the door is closed, the bedroom acts as insulation for the rest of the house. Unfortunately, Nicola and I have to sleep in it. The romance of waking up and being able to see one's breath is wearing a little thin on both of us. The wall is made of stone and (I think) rendered (is that the right word) using modern plaster on the inside. To add insult to injury the previous owners also used a "ragging" paint effect. There's a round, single glazed window which doesn't open, high up on the wall. (see pics attached).

In the short term, I'm thinking a thick curtain over the round window and possibly some hideous rugs / wall hangings attached to the rest of the wall to act much like rugs on a stone floor, might help keep the room a touch warmer. Anyone else have any ideas for to make the room warmer this winter?

In the long term.....? I have been advised to build a stud wall and then insulate between this and the stone wall, but that sounds like a daft idea. There must be a better way to do it!

Would love some ideas from the experts please!

Cheers - Jon

 

[Lime]

Not being funny but have you tried electric overblankets?

We have turned off the electric heating in our bedroom (for economy) and treated ourselves to an overblanket.
It warms up in minutes and you stay nice and snug all night.

 

[JonP]

Not being funny but have you tried electric overblankets?

Cheers Lime - My girlfriend is lobbying for one of these and I think we'll get one.

It doesn't fix the problem of getting up and ito a really cold room though

 

[AMc]

I have been advised to build a stud wall and then insulate between this and the stone wall, but that sounds like a daft idea. There must be a better way to do it!

Draughtproofing and insulating are the only ways you'll make the wall more thermally efficient and the room warmer.

There are three ways to insulate a wall
1 - in the cavity
2 - externally - you attach insulation to the outside of the wall and then render/clad over the top
3 - internally - you attach insulation to the inside of the wall then board/plaster over the top.

As 1 is almost certainly impossible, you won't have a cavity you will have to look at 2 or 3. As an insulated wall will be around 10 times more efficient than a solid wall it will certainly work to make your room warmer.

As you live in an old building you may have listing or conservation concerns about doing the work.
If you're listed talk to the local conservation officer before you decide what to do.
If you're not listed pay particular attention to maintaining the 'breathability' of the wall to ensure moisture can move and doesn't become trapped leading to damp issues. You may need to remove the modern plaster from that wall if there are signs of damp causing it to deteriorate inside or outside.

My first port of call would be to look for draughts and eliminate them where ever you can. This will be cheap, quick and can be remarkably effective.

Good luck!

 

[Nemesis]

Actually, insulating the wall may not bring as many benefits as sometimes is claimed.

And yes it is listed.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Are those gaps I can see between boards above the window?

I would take radical emergency action for the short term. Get bubble wrap and fold it to fit that rectangle, several layers of folded stuff until it is level with wall. Tape edges to wall.

Then depending if you want light or not from it, hang a really thick curtain over the lot.
Put your bed on another wall, all the cold will be dropping onto you both from the window and wall.

Is it insulated above your ceiling? It looks like maybe not and you will be losing loads of heat there.

Sort properly next summer.

 

[Nemesis]

Some advice here:

http://www.ewht.org.uk/Energy-Heritage-Project.aspx

Not all relevant I know, but a useful start.

Oue ancestors used to have beds with curtains, and hang tapestries.

I like electric blankets too.

 

[JonP]

My first port of call would be to look for draughts and eliminate them where ever you can. This will be cheap, quick and can be remarkably effective.

Good idea.... because the arched window in the bedroom lets in tons of draughts, I guess I didn't consider going after all the others. A school boy error I'm sure!

I would take radical emergency action for the short term. Get bubble wrap and fold it to fit that rectangle, several layers of folded stuff until it is level with wall. Tape edges to wall.

That sounds like the sort of scruffy, short term solution that will see us through the winter. Great idea - thanks.

For a long term solution, in addition to AMc and Nemesis advice, I have had some offline advice saying to knock off the modern plaster, repair the stone wall underneath with lime and then look at something like this: http://www.natural-building.co.uk/pavadentro_renovation.htm with a breathable plaster finish on top... on the inside of the wall. But that looks like a summer job to me, so plenty more time for rooting around for a solution...

Now..... wheres that candle? I have draughts to battle....

 

[Penners]

As others have mentioned, I'm prepared to bet that you could make a significant difference to the temperature in the room if you:-

1. Install a secondary window inside the round window - having first done something about the draughty-looking lintel beams at the top of the reveal.

2. Investigate the structure of the ceiling. It's inevitable that a vaulted ceiling like yours will need more heating than a 7ft 6in or 8ft suspended (and insulated) ceiling, but if, as is likely, the current structure has little or no insulation, then you could make a significant difference by tackling that as a priority.

As a further measure, if it still proves necessary, I don't regard the addition of an extra leaf to the wall as daft. If you battened the wall to create an air gap and then applied insulated plasterboard to the battening, this could quite beneficial. However, do ensure that allow a little ventilation to the air gap.

 

[Lime]

Not being funny but have you tried electric overblankets?

Cheers Lime - My girlfriend is lobbying for one of these and I think we'll get one.
It doesn't fix the problem of getting up and ito a really cold room though

Well maybe, depending on what you have under foot, because I can remember lino from my childhood and it made everywhere cold.
However, climbing out of a warm bed feeling all nice and warm, the brief few cold seconds before putting on your dressing gown is hardly noticed.
If you feel warm to start with it doesn't feel so cold as it really is!

 

[Penners]

Trouble is, everyone's gone soft, these days. When I were a lad, we didn't have namby-pamby central heating, or yer poncy electric blankets. We put an extra blanket on the bed and got dressed before we got up. And we could write our names in the ice on the inside of the window.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IeXMKygwSco

 

[JonP]

Trouble is, everyone's gone soft, these days. When I were a lad, we didn't have namby-pamby central heating, or yer poncy electric blankets. We put an extra blanket on the bed and got dressed before we got up. And we could write our names in the ice on the inside of the window.

Eee Penners. You had it easy!

We had to get up half an hour before we went to bed, eat a cup of cold gravel, go to work at mill and pay miller for privilege of working.

 

[JonP]

Oh - by the way the ceiling is 'insulated' to a point... it's got some fibrous board of some kind about 3/4" inch thick and then a gap of about 2" before you get to the boards underneath the roof battens. It's certainly something we need to sort out, probably by leaving another air gap and then adding on some more efficient insulation.

From what everybody is saying, we effectively need to do the same to the north wall once we've stripped off all the non-breathable plaster from the stone.

In the meantime, namby-pamby electric blanket fitted last night. From the cries of pleasure I heard when Nic got in to bed last night I assume it works for her, or she'd got a better man than me in to have a crack at fixing the temperature in the bedroom

 

[Nemesis]

From what everybody is saying, we effectively need to do the same to the north wall once we've stripped off all the non-breathable plaster from the stone.

Its not what I said. It may be a great deal of work for little reward. Ceiling is what I would think about first.

It has been very cold indeed though. Was the rad on through the night?

Is this room on top of an unheated one?

(I love that little round window btw.)

 

[Lime]

In the meantime, namby-pamby electric blanket fitted last night. From the cries of pleasure I heard when Nic got in to bed last night I assume it works for her, or she'd got a better man than me in to have a crack at fixing the temperature in the bedroom

I'd make sure you have the dual controls on the correct sides of the bed too.
The first night my sister and spouse had an overblanket, despite and because of the control twiddling during the night, they woke up as a very cold man and a very hot woman.

 

[Penners]

my sister and spouse ...woke up as a very cold man and a very hot woman.

Some men have all the luck.

 

[Penners]

Ceiling is what I would think about first.

I agree. That and the window (as I mentioned above). 3/4" of fibreboard isn't much of a defence against heat loss. You need to get some serious insulation up there.

 

[JonP]

Its not what I said. It may be a great deal of work for little reward. Ceiling is what I would think about first.

You're right, of course - not everyone said insulating the wall was a good idea and the ceiling is the most obvious starting point. I had already decided that we need to get that sorted really, but now Nemesis & Penners have made a point of it, I've re-read the posts and see where you're coming from. But since the other main bedroom is nearly as large, has the same sort of ceiling and is insulated to the same level, I thought that maybe if we could sort the wall out it would prove the most beneficial. However, you're probably right and I need to do ALL the roof insulation first.

It really is the most amazingly cold wall though and since you can actually feel where next door's roof buts up to it (cool) and where it doesn't (bl**dy freezing) I shan't rule out the wall insulation, for the time being at least.

It has been very cold indeed though. Was the rad on through the night?

No. With Oil fired heating, couldn't heating half the house all night (even to a low level) prove expensive? Or is it better to do that than try to get the temperature up by a few degrees in the morning?

Is this room on top of an unheated one?

No.... it's at the cooler end of the living room, but the living room, like the rest of the house, is toasty!

(I love that little round window btw.)

Me too. It serves little purpose to use apart from making that end of the house look funky when viewed from various footpaths.

 

[MdB]

Is the cold wall showing any signs of damp? If it is damp internally, it will conduct heat far better (or worse depending on your point of view) than a dry wall.

 

[Penners]

However, you're probably right and I need to do ALL the roof insulation first.

Definitely. Heat rises.

I shan't rule out the wall insulation

Nor would I - particularly on an exposed north wall.

couldn't heating half the house all night (even to a low level) prove expensive

Oh yes! Much better to spend the money on retaining your heat inside your house, rather than on creating more heat to warm the sky above you.