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Anonymous
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In Germany it is allowed by DIN Norm to give unto 5% PC in a 'pure lime mortar' without any declaration. So, what are the norms in UK allow? Do you know it exactly?
I know from german (and international acting) producers that they give in some amounts of cement to improve NHLs. And it depends on the 1000s possibilities to receipt, which structure a hydraulic mortar will have.
The results of hydraulic binder is more water storeing, being more sensible for cracks and bringing possibly efflorescent salts in the mortar. So why? Because it sets 'better'. This is not a advantage in my eyes.
And: Lime myths are not my beloved fairy tales.
I know from german (and international acting) producers that they give in some amounts of cement to improve NHLs. And it depends on the 1000s possibilities to receipt, which structure a hydraulic mortar will have.
The results of hydraulic binder is more water storeing, being more sensible for cracks and bringing possibly efflorescent salts in the mortar. So why? Because it sets 'better'. This is not a advantage in my eyes.
And: Lime myths are not my beloved fairy tales.
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Anonymous
Guest
Err, well we started off talking about someone considering buying bags of Natural Hydraulic Lime (NHL), not Pure lime mortars to the German DIN(DIN are not used in the UK anyway.) & yes, I do know the British Standard.
Lime branded as 'NHL' in the UK & much of the EU must conform to BS EU Norm 459-1 which forbids the addition any Portland Cement. Some manufactures do add Portland Cement to NHL, for new build (1:1:6 type mixes), in which case it must be marked only 'HL5' or 'HL3.5' etc, as long as there is less than 20% portland cement.
So, as I said before, can you name any of these people who are breaking the law & ripping us off? Or provide any evidence? There are only 3 commonly available brands of NHL in the UK, they all specifically deny that they add any Portland Cement. Are you suggesting they are lying?
Lime branded as 'NHL' in the UK & much of the EU must conform to BS EU Norm 459-1 which forbids the addition any Portland Cement. Some manufactures do add Portland Cement to NHL, for new build (1:1:6 type mixes), in which case it must be marked only 'HL5' or 'HL3.5' etc, as long as there is less than 20% portland cement.
So, as I said before, can you name any of these people who are breaking the law & ripping us off? Or provide any evidence? There are only 3 commonly available brands of NHL in the UK, they all specifically deny that they add any Portland Cement. Are you suggesting they are lying?
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Anonymous
Guest
Thats how learning works. We share information, or beliefs, and often find out whats right and whats not.
If we all knew it all already, there'd be a whole lot less discussion.
IOW, this is a discussion forum rather than a researched article.
NT
If we all knew it all already, there'd be a whole lot less discussion.
IOW, this is a discussion forum rather than a researched article.
NT
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Anonymous
Guest
'IOW'......eh?
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Anonymous
Guest
'Isle of Wight' branch.
Grimmers
Grimmers
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Anonymous
Guest
I do suggest to be careful with industrial info. What I know of NHL producers here in Germany is, that the NHL ressources in the quarry don't deliver all time the same quality. And so its use to give some maybe small amounts of white cement in to harmonize the regulated quality. They must not declare this onto 5% even if they do that with 'pure' lime mortars.
I would be astonished about the english honesty, if such practise is forbidden by law in UK. Is it? Who knows it by asking an honest producer?
Since many years I have very much discussions with R&D in mortar industry, my uncle was a not so small producer of cement, lime, trass and mortars (which I never used!) and I have very close private friends in this branche (without using their products at all!). So I know some unknown details - atminstone in Germany.
I don't know so many persons in the branche in UK, but whom I know confirmed my german expierience in this topic. But this will say nothing.
I would be astonished about the english honesty, if such practise is forbidden by law in UK. Is it? Who knows it by asking an honest producer?
Since many years I have very much discussions with R&D in mortar industry, my uncle was a not so small producer of cement, lime, trass and mortars (which I never used!) and I have very close private friends in this branche (without using their products at all!). So I know some unknown details - atminstone in Germany.
I don't know so many persons in the branche in UK, but whom I know confirmed my german expierience in this topic. But this will say nothing.
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Anonymous
Guest
At the risk of covering old ground here, but anyway...
The German DIN standard for pure lime mortars is irrelevant in the UK. Even if it wasn't irrelevant, the original poster wanted a bag of NHL, not a bag of mortar - you do understand there is a considerable difference?
And I'll say it again: if the bag is marked NHL2, NHL3.5 or NHL5, it is illegal to have added Portland Cement. Have you read the relevant EU norms & British Standards for building limes? You cannot falsley claim to meet a British Standard in the UK. Trading Standards would be the relevant body to launch a criminal prosecution, & I suppose you could also be sued in common law by your customers.
I notice you still don't provide any evidence or names - just rumors from unnammed sources. Hardly convincing.
The German DIN standard for pure lime mortars is irrelevant in the UK. Even if it wasn't irrelevant, the original poster wanted a bag of NHL, not a bag of mortar - you do understand there is a considerable difference?
And I'll say it again: if the bag is marked NHL2, NHL3.5 or NHL5, it is illegal to have added Portland Cement. Have you read the relevant EU norms & British Standards for building limes? You cannot falsley claim to meet a British Standard in the UK. Trading Standards would be the relevant body to launch a criminal prosecution, & I suppose you could also be sued in common law by your customers.
I notice you still don't provide any evidence or names - just rumors from unnammed sources. Hardly convincing.
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Anonymous
Guest
And why don't you post under a proper name - hardly convincing either!
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Anonymous
Guest
I did detail the material questions with some scientists here and so I agree with you, that NHL is sold without cements. But: In ready made dry NHL mortars here in Germany they give some cement to improve the setting. Otherwise there are to many risks, that the hydrauls in NHL will not work 'good' enough on too dry grounds and it will be only more expensive than hydrated lime without any 'advantage' by higher hardening.
That german DINs are without any relvance in other countries naturally I know. So this is no question.
The question we must discuss is wether there are real advantages by using NHL instead of pure hydratic lime. And here I am convinced that hydrated lime will make better mortars for long time view, atminstone what belongs my own experience.
To name persons which gave me confidential informations from industry to confirm facts or doubts in a forum I hesitate and think, that our discussion unto now does not need it.
Best regards
Konrad
That german DINs are without any relvance in other countries naturally I know. So this is no question.
The question we must discuss is wether there are real advantages by using NHL instead of pure hydratic lime. And here I am convinced that hydrated lime will make better mortars for long time view, atminstone what belongs my own experience.
To name persons which gave me confidential informations from industry to confirm facts or doubts in a forum I hesitate and think, that our discussion unto now does not need it.
Best regards
Konrad