How will electrical regulations be applied?

[Lime]

Most people have central heated modern houses that are often very warm and the "eco" light they buy to save the world and life as we know it is warm too, heated by all the excess heat energy they waste.

Yes, low energy lighting produces some heat, albeit less than the old incandescent lighting. But it's a moot point whether that heat is wasted (in winter, anyway).

As you say, most people have central heating, which is controlled by a thermostat. If the lighting is giving off heat, then it will presumably help to satisfy the thermostat just that little bit quicker. So the heat won't, in fact, be wasted.

Yes I agree but you appear to have missed my point possibly because I did not explain myself properly.
I was referring to the "eco" lamp being warm prior to switch on so that the warm up period would be very short or not exist.
Whereas those people with cold houses (not using much energy unlike the hot modern house) have cold "eco" lamps that take forever to warm up, rendering them useless in many situations.
(I have "eco" lamps in my outside lights and they take nearly 15 minutes to warm up properly on a cold night so not much good for taking out the rubbish!)

The point being that the majority of people who support the ban of the incandescent lamp are living in hot energy-consuming houses.
Also, by your own logical argument with reference to the heat difference between types of lamp, there is no major saving of energy because central heating makes up the difference.

So people in large older houses who wish to continue using incandescents are being made to change by those people who's lifestyle consumes huge quantities of energy and to whom the "eco" lamps make little or no difference.

 

[Flyfisher]

Whereas those people with cold houses (not using much energy unlike the hot modern house) have cold "eco" lamps that take forever to warm up, rendering them useless in many situations.

I can certainly vouch for that. It makes the use of 'eco' lamps less than perfect for ocassionally used rooms such as hallways, bathrooms and cloakrooms etc.

Maybe I should use one of those 85W (430W equivalent) eco lamps in the bathroom - the initial brightness would probably be perfectly adequate and occupants would be encouraged to finish their business quickly before they are blinded by the increasing brightness.

 

[Penners]

I was referring to the "eco" lamp being warm prior to switch on so that the warm up period would be very short or not exist.
Whereas those people with cold houses (not using much energy unlike the hot modern house) have cold "eco" lamps that take forever to warm up, rendering them useless in many situations.

Yes, I confess I did miss that point. I had noticed that the low energy lamps in our house seem to have very different warm-up times, but I had never considered that this was temperature-related.

Needless to say, whenever my wife has been in a room, the warm-up time is just about zero!

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Penners - I have not doubt your wife is "hot" :wink:

Or did you mean that she always leaves the light on?

I have switched most of the incandescent lights throughout the house to "eco" lights. However, the light (once it finally brightens up) is nowhere near as warm and subtle as incandescent bulbs. It is quite a dull and lifeless type of light.

Is this just that I have bought duff bulbs (seems to be the same regardless of make, although I do tend towards the cheaper bulbs), or is it a technology thing that will improve with time?

I also made the mistake of buying some of those horrendously expensive LED replacement bulbs for one of my halogen strings. I think it cost me something like thirty quid for the whole string (but offset by the fact that they will outlive me by a few thousand years). Biggest waste of money ever - the supposedly equivalent nano-watt output turned the room into a dimly lit Santa's grotto. And I had to turn up the boiler to make up for the lack of radiated heat!

 

[Cloudscape]

Thanks for the information about socket heights. Most of the chasing for sockets has still to be done, so (hopefully) I can get the electrician to change course.

One problem I have with high sockets is that they intrude on otherwise blank walls, and the flexes trail down. I'm sure, as I get older, and bending down makes me feel dizzy, I will wish I had the sockets within easy reach. But right now, I am thinking of the house, not myself.

 

[Penners]

Penners - I have not doubt your wife is "hot"

You couldn't be more wrong. So far as Mrs P is concerned, there are only two temperatures: above 20 deg C, which is technically known as "cozy", and below that level, which is always "freezing".

It is quite a dull and lifeless type of light. Is this just that I have bought duff bulbs?

Not in my experience. I think they're all like that - flat, cold light. Certainly not "cozy"!

 

[Ian Bond]

Thanks for the information about socket heights. Most of the chasing for sockets has still to be done, so (hopefully) I can get the electrician to change course.

One problem I have with high sockets is that they intrude on otherwise blank walls, and the flexes trail down. I'm sure, as I get older, and bending down makes me feel dizzy, I will wish I had the sockets within easy reach. But right now, I am thinking of the house, not myself.

I can't see a reason why the electrician would refuse to put the sockets at your preferred height.

From my own research it seems that this sort of confusion is not uncommon, and those Part M requirements are certainly being interpretted by some people as mandatory.


Please let us all know the outcome.

 

[Penners]

I'm sure, as I get older, and bending down makes me feel dizzy, I will wish I had the sockets within easy reach.

Speaking as one who has already got older, low-down sockets don't make a jot of difference. You just follow the golden rule - before you bend down, make a list of the things that you can do while you're down there.

 

[Ian Bond]

I think we can lay some blame with the Institute of Electrical Engineers for the electrician's confusion, Cloudscape.

My On-Site Guide, BS 7671 : 200 (2004) Wiring Regulations 16th Edition states:

Heights of switches and sockets

The Building Regulations require switches and socket-outlets
in dwellings to be installed so that all persons including those
whose reach is limited can easily use them. A way of satisfying the
requirement is to install switches and socket-outlets in
habitable rooms at a height of between 450 mm and 1200 mm
from the finished floor level - see Figure 8A. Unless the dwelling
is for persons whose reach is limited the requirements would
not apply to kitchens and garages but specifically only to
rooms that visitors would normally use.

The Building Regulations are not applicable in Scotland where
the Building Standards (Scotland) Regulations apply. The
Scottish regulations do not have specific minimum heights for
accessories, installations are required to generally comply with
BS 7671.

There follows a diagram showing a doorway with accessories drawn at the recommended heights, from Approved Document M, 1999 edition Section B.

No further explanation, clarification, alternative solutions or exclusions are stated.

If I wanted to cover myself, particularly if Building Control were going to be inspecting other work carried out on the property, I'd be putting those accessories at the suggested heights.

However, if I'd gone to the trouble of reading Approved Document M, and got as far as page 11 without losing the will to live, I'd find that it actually says:

Extensions and material alterations:
dwellings

0.2 Under Regulation 4(2), where any
building is extended, or undergoes a
material alteration, the building work must
be carried out so that after it has been completed
the building complies with the applicable
requirements of Schedule 1,
or, where it did not fully comply with
and applicable requirement, it is no more
unsatisfactory than before.

0.3 This rule applies to domestic as well
as to non-domestic buildings. Under the
Limits on Application in Part M, Part M
does not apply to an extension of, or a
material alteration of, a dwelling. However
an extension of a dwelling, or a material
alteration of a dwelling, must not make
the building less satisfactory in relation
to Part M than it was before.

So part M does not apply to rewires or electrical alterations to existing dwellings. You'd need to be doing something that made the building less accessible, perhaps by moving the socket down into the skirting, or putting light switches at head height. Not that the IEE guide makes that point clear. You have to look at Approved Document M.

In fact, if you manage to get further, onto Page 14, you'll see that historic buildings listed or otherwise are to be treated with particular care.

Maybe eventually this will filter throught to the hard-pressed tradespeople who are struggling to make a living whilst keeping up with the regs.

Or perhaps the regs will be altered again to make the accessory height requirements apply to all future work :?: :roll:

I'd be very interested to know the outcome of your discussions with the electrician.

 

[Ian Bond]

I should of course say that johneds pointed this out long ago, back on the previous page.

Just wanted to clarify the point, as I happened to read the page on my On-Site Guide whilst looking up the Number of Socket outlets info.

 

[middi]

Thanks or the research Ian, good to know.

 

[Ian Bond]

No probs, it was bothering me!

And thanks for relating your experience of what actually happens in practice, Middi.

Sometimes these regulations are sent to try us :twisted:

 

[Penners]

Sometimes these regulations are sent to try us

Well, yes. I tend to that way of thinking, too. But then I come across some electrical horror perpetrated by my predecessor in this house, and my view of regulation seems to soften!

 

[Ian Bond]

Well, unfortunately all the regulations in the world won't stop that.

The vast majority of DIY'ers are careful with electrics and can do as good as job as a pro - sometimes better as a DIYer may choose to spend more time doing things neatly and 'by the book'.

However, the really dangerous bodgers are always present, and never follow any rules or regulations (apart from their own bodge-it-and-scarper rule).

Note that all the bits you need from consumer unit, through cables to accessories are freely available in the shops.

 

[Penners]

Note that all the bits you need from consumer unit, through cables to accessories are freely available in the shops.

I confess that, when I first heard that the new "competent person" regulations were soon to arrive, I worried that electrical gear would stop being sold to DIYers. So I bought a substantial stock of everything - cable, switches, sockets, boxes, etc, etc!

However, as you have pointed out, nothing has changed.

Anyone want to buy 100 metres of yellow/green earth sleeve?!

 

[Ian Bond]

No thanks Penners, but I hear that the old core colour cable is doing a roaring trade on ebay

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: