How much space does a lorry need to turn?

[JoceAndChris]

Those of you who've been here may remember we park the car on a track running through the fields outside the cottage. It's not our track, or parking place, but there is an old, legally documented right of access, which presumably includes access for the oil delivery vehicle? And the giant lorry for the Amazon deliveries?

One of these fields bordering the track is now sold, and the new owner, who would eventually like to build houses there, has just marked out the boundary of his field for fencing, which is imminent. He's taking back the corner where lorries typically turn, ( also a corner which has a public footpath running through it, which he's moved back to our hedgerow where he says it used to be, chopping down 15 trees in our hedgerow to facilitate this. )

Does anyone know how much space you need to turn a giant lorry? I'm very worried that it will make deliveries impossible, and if I can point out to him sweetly that he will also need a turning spot for lorries perhaps he'll relinquish this corner. As he owns the place where I park my car I'm reluctant to antagonise him. I expect he'd be perfectly within his rights to insist I park elsewhere - on our new field perhaps - so I've decided that to be friends with him is the best strategy. Whilst I could, possibly, park elsewhere, it would be inconceivable to ask anyone coming in a non 4x4 vehicle to do that.

 

[JoceAndChris]

To be honest I have visions of me smashing this new fence up in its first week as my reversing is pants.

 

[Pford75]

Turning circles depend rather on the vehicle and the driver....we have restricted access onto our driveway through some rather narrow stone gateposts. I have seen some people struggle to get a small family car through and I have seen a skip lorry deliver successfully (with only inches to spare either side).

We own a driveway access to our paddocks, which our neighbours used to use for parking (they had a garage, but preferred to park on our driveway). We tolerated this for a couple of years, but it became tiresome having to ask them to move the car whenever we needed to access the paddock (and on occasions, the husband was away and his wife can't drive...meaning we couldnt access our paddock). In the end, we had to point out that a right of way is not the same as a 'right to park'.

If the owner does build houses, presumably you would not be able to park where you currently do?

 

[Flyfisher]

Difficult. You must be very careful to protect your boundary to ensure your neighbour doesn't encroach on your land as I believe fences can become the new boundaries if not immediately contested if placed incorrectly.

I'm sure a friendly chat is the best starting point but even if you come to an informal arrangement, I'd be surprised if the neighbour would relinquish any permanent rights regarding his land - not without some payment anyway. Consider it from his perspective.

You say there is only 4x4 access to your new land but could this be changed? Even a gravel track should be accessible by normal vehicles (unless particulaly steep). I've also heard of road planings (basically the chewed up surface of old roads generated during resurfacing works) being used to create new roadways.

 

[Tom]

What size of lorry do you mean, Joce? There is a sign on the approach road to your house saying it's unsuitable for HGVs. So, providing a turning space for such vehicles could be irrelevant.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Interesting post Pford, I'm sure you're right that a right of access is not the same as a right to park, though I'll be horrified if a right of access does not include the right for an oil tanker to park for ten minutes to fill up my tank.

I'd park in the garage, if my parking became a nuisance, but I'm seriously worried that this man is laying claim to a few metres that represent access for all sorts of groups - not just me, but also the field on the right. Where will the combine park and turn?

Here's a bit of the parking spot

Here's the field that has used that parking spot for farm vehicles, sometimes overnight.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks for the new posts from FF and Jaqy.

I just think a lot of give and take is called for here, he's bought a piece of land that includes a public footpath and a track used legally by us and farm vehicles. The same track, and parking space will be used by all the new owners of the parcelled up bits of land - so I'm envisioning a huge increase in traffic, with horse boxes and tractors and goodness knows what.
Our access down to the field we've bought is a public footpath. Can we turn it into a gravel drive for vehicles?

Jaqy - No-one takes any notice of that sign at all, it's a new sign, and a puzzling one. Life is impossible without HGVs!

 

[Tom]

Another thought, Joce. Has he left you enough room to access your garage? If the garage has had access for the prescribed number of years, then you will have a right to continue to have such access.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Yes, the garage, which is in front of the poppy field in the above pic, is not on his land. We access the garage by guess what - a public footpath. Again, only currently suitable for 4x4 vehicles.

 

[Tom]

Joce, I hate to say this but it sounds like you may need the services of a solicitor who deals in Land Law. Get this wrong and it could have a huge impact on your access/parking, a future sale and your relationship with the new 'neighbours'. I wish I could help you but my boundary dispute was on a much smaller scale (even though the County solicitor was involved and it went on for 10 years), so my knowledge is very limited.

 

[Penners]

Joce, I hate to say this but it sounds like you may need the services of a solicitor

I think I agree. I certainly wouldn't resort to law as a first "move" with your new neighbour, but if you're initially going to try a friendly, eyelash-fluttering approach, it would be good to know exactly what your legal rights are beforehand.

 

[Tom]

Joce, I hate to say this but it sounds like you may need the services of a solicitor

I think I agree. I certainly wouldn't resort to law as a first "move" with your new neighbour, but if you're initially going to try a friendly, eyelash-fluttering approach, it would be good to know exactly what your legal rights are beforehand.

Exactly. If you can establish what rights you have and where boundaries and paths should be, you can speak to your neighbour safe in the knowledge that what you're saying is correct and that you can back it up if need be.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thank you for your knd replies - I had a little chat with a solicitor already, and the gist of it was that we're relying on good will here. Sam has no legal obligation to maintain the track or our parking place. The map from Lincoln County Council ( I paid for a search) shows his new fencing to be on his land, and our hedgerow, turning into a copse, isn't really on there - that's what 50 years of neglect does.

I've spent a fair bit of time with Sam, (he wants to buy BC as the little castle for his new kingdom!), and I think he'll be susceptible to eyelash fluttering. If I can make him think he needs a large turning circle on that patch then future deliveries of oil and Cath Kidston will be safeguarded.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Joce,

You need to check out the movement of a public footpath - its location will be on the "definitive rights of way map" held by the Council. It can't be moved willy-nilly.

Also - might not be wise to discuss this on a public forum - your "moves" are easily found!

 

[Flyfisher]

I just think a lot of give and take is called for here, he's bought a piece of land that includes a public footpath and a track used legally by us and farm vehicles. The same track, and parking space will be used by all the new owners of the parcelled up bits of land - so I'm envisioning a huge increase in traffic, with horse boxes and tractors and goodness knows what.

Although the land can be bought and sold, I don't believe the owner has any right to restrict your access. But I also don't really know what 'access' means in a strictly legal sense and whether it extends (in a physical width sense) to HGVs.

I'm not a great one for instantly resorting to legal action, but I agree with the others that some legal advice sounds a sensible way of protecting your legals rights - whatever informal arrangements you might agree with your neighbour.

Our access down to the field we've bought is a public footpath. Can we turn it into a gravel drive for vehicles?

I don't think so, because it's not your land (I assume)

Actually, there could be another issue here because vehicles are not allowed on a public footpath, unless you own the land itself, so I suspect it may not be legal to use that footpath for vehicle access to your land, unless you have other rights of way over it.

We have a footpath across our field and my understanding is that, although it's legal for me to drive along it, as the owner, any vehicle I use must be road-legal, which means I should not (really) SORN my tractor. I know this is not directly relevant to your situation but I mention it to illustrate how tricky the actual legal situations can become.

 

[philpjuk100]

My computer only loads the second pic but it looks like a monet painting!great,phil.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks for the advice, and the nice comment Phil. You must come for tea next time you do the Notions/ asda run. It's such a can of worms now though ... I'm steeling myself for all sorts of changes.

It's been a wild place, always. The huge garage was built without planning permission ( I hate it, might knock it down). For twenty five years vehicles have driven along the public footpath to the garage, and no one has said a word. Likewise, agricultural vehicles have driven across the footpaths periodically to do the things they need to do.

The currrent seller sells the fields with vehicular access, which are chiefly public footpaths. And the townsfolk think all the 13 acres in front of the cottage are common land, and they are criss crossed with dozens of unofficial footpaths - mess, mess, mess.

I don't want to argue with Sam about his moving of a public footpath. I sort of see his point, why should a public footpath be 30 metres wide? I want to move one too, on our land, that meanders over about ten metres of width.

I suppose in time, it will all sort itself out, but I see battles and fury ahead where it's just been peacefulness.

 

[Flyfisher]

For twenty five years vehicles have driven along the public footpath to the garage, and no one has said a word.

This is the sort of thing where legal advice might help. I believe there are rules that can establish a right of way if regularly exercised over a certain period of time (20 years rings a bell).

Likewise, agricultural vehicles have driven across the footpaths periodically to do the things they need to do.

Less of an issue, I would guess, because such traffic would almost certainly have been with the permission of the land owner.

And the townsfolk think all the 13 acres in front of the cottage are common land, and they are criss crossed with dozens of unofficial footpaths - mess, mess, mess.

Again, beware of action to establish any regularly used paths as official rights of way.

I sort of see his point, why should a public footpath be 30 metres wide? I want to move one too, on our land, that meanders over about ten metres of width.

I don't believe a footpath can be 30 metres wide, at least not in the legal sense. I had this conversation with our footpaths officer when I wanted to part-fence our field. I had to cross the footpath and asked how wide a gap I needed to leave so as not to obstruct the footpath. The answer was a bit vague as she wasn't sure about an exact measurement but said they'd take no action for one metre in width. I settled on 4 feet to be safe.

I'd invest in a copy of the 'definitive map' of all the supposed footpaths in the area. it's called 'definitive' because it's regarded as a legal document. You might find paths that are regularly used are not on the defiitve map, in which case they are not legal rights of way, and you might find legal paths that don't quite follow the physical paths. You might also be able to get the footpath officer to arrange proper waymarking posts to be installed. This might be a good start to "re-training" the locals about the legal paths.

Footpaths can be moved but there is a defined legal process. It's a bit like planning permission where the proposal has to be publically advertised and comments invited. 'Our' footpath was diverted slightly to accomodate some house building and there was no problem, presumably because it made little or no material difference to the right of way. But expect strong resistance if you want to make dramatic changes to a right of way - they are part of our historical infrastructure after all.

 

[Flyfisher]

.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

One of these fields bordering the track is now sold, and the new owner, who would eventually like to build houses there.

I've been, quite carefully, through the local plan and its various replacements and (although the 1995 allocation map for Gr...m is missing from the documentation on the web), I think any desire ever to build any houses at all on any of the fields neighbouring your house is complete pie in the sky, and will remain so short of an unthinkable (even with Eric Pickles in charge) change in policy.