How long is given to comply with Consv Officer?

[oddbod]

Hi, we are looking to purchase a Grade II listed Property. We are aware UPVC Windows and a UPVC door have been fitted to the rear of the Property.
We do not intend to ever sell this House, and would, as funds allow, expect to return said UPVC to wood (after we repair all the stuff that is detrimental to the Buildings ongoing life, install a Bathroom and Toilet, Heating, fix the Roof, re-wire, and re-lime plaster all the 4 bedrooms!
As we do not ever intend to sell the house, and will need to approach Conservation Officer at some point, we recognise that IF we purchase we COULD be liable to return UPVC to original windows (assume wood) so would budget for that eventuality over 40 years.
Would our Conservation Officer be content that we INTEND to do the work, or are they likely to insist it is done before we make the House more habitable?

 

[Gareth Hughes]

The only way to find out is to ask them.
However, I take it that these "features" have been installed without permission by the vendors? in which case it is very much in your interest to get the vendors to sort the problem out now, and not to take on, yourself, what could turn into a criminal prosecution with a possible unlimited fine and two years in prison.

 

[Flyfisher]

But even if the current CO does allow time for replacement, what if a new CO arrives on the scene with a different view?

One way to budget immediately for replacement of the windows is to knock the cost of the work off the offered price for the house. The vendor may not be best pleased but they are the ones responsible for committing the offence and should, in all fairness, pay to correct things.

As Gareth points out, such unauthorised alteration is a criminal offence so if the vendor complains too much about a reduced offer price perhaps you could suggest a meeting with the CO so that all parties can discuss the matter :wink:

This may make the vendor realise that replacing the windows themselves is the right thing to do.

Just one point of clarification though Gareth, I thought criminal proceedings could only be taken against the owner who actually made unauthorised alterations, not against a new owner who inherited them. I do understand that the current owner is liable for the rectification though, whoever it was that actually did the deed.

 

[skier-hughes]

There may also be other unauthroised work already completed, which also will need rectifying, or of course all of it may have been given permission.

 

[oddbod]

We are sure no Permission was granted for UPVC in Grade II listed, our Solicitor is trying to discover what, if ANY, permissions were granted for works. Owner who had work done is Dead. We are buying from estate/relatives.
Is it possible/realistic to make a change to Offer price at quite a late stage in proceedings? We have not yet Signed Loan Agreement for Mortgage, so no "Formal" offer yet, still subject to.....
I just answered my own query!

 

[skier-hughes]

Up until exchange of contract you can do what you want!

 

[MatthewC]

I think you might need to apply for Listed Building Consent to refit wood windows... which does seem a bit daft if the old ones were removed illegally.

You might need to get something from the CO to support your bid for a reduced price, otherwise the vendors could reject your offer and sell it at their price to someone who has no idea of the issue.

 

[oddbod]

The "issue" was raised during Conveyancing by our Solicitor, as there was a refusal of Planning Permission (not sure what for yet, still asking Vendors Solicitor) although we had spotted the UPVC (and knew it COULDN'T have LBConsent, as is also in Conservation Area) but were unsure as to what to do next. We are up for buying the House, and are also in the position of Budgeting over 25years++ for renovation (a long story)
Should we do an estimate of re-install costs and let Vendor know quickly, or advise CO 1st? Would CO demand re-install by Vendors before any sale if they were made aware?

 

[malcolm]

The planning section of the council website will probably have full details of planning applications dating back a few years. Worth a look there to see what was applied for (and what the neighbours are up to).

 

[Flyfisher]

Just to be absolutely sure, do you know when the house was listed? There's an outside chance that it was listed recently and the PVC was inflicted on it beforehand, in which case there would be no immediate pressure to replace them - indeed, you could not be forced to replace them at all. Unlikely, I would guess, but it's best to clarify any assumptions.

Having said that, my instinct would be to contact the CO before committing to the purchase.

Firstly, it sounds like you have plans to make various changes (which is fine) so you might as well start dealing with the CO sooner rather than later. We did that with our house and had a very helpful and productive discussion about our plans for the property before committing. Most of our plans were fine, a few less so, but overall the CO made far better suggestions than we had thought about at the time so it was like free and expert consultancy.

Secondly, as mentioned above, you'll almost certainly need listed building consent to replace the PVC windows. Not so much for their removal but more for approval of the new windows. So again, talking to the CO sooner rather than later can only be a good thing.

Thirdly, it would likely be useful in your negotiations to let the vendor know that the CO is being consulted about the illegal alterations. As also pointed out above, you can make any changes to your offer up to the point of exchanging contracts. You needn't feel bad about this if new information has come to light during your surveys and investigations, that's what 'under offer' is all about - everything is negotiable.

Ultimately, only you can make the final decision, but try to ensure you really understand all the potential liabilities you're taking on. In most cases, these can be converted into an amount of money with which you can negotiate your offer.
Good luck with it all.

 

[Flyfisher]

You might need to get something from the CO to support your bid for a reduced price, otherwise the vendors could reject your offer and sell it at their price to someone who has no idea of the issue.

I'm not entirely sure about the legality of that but it would certainly be 'sharp practice' at the very least once the vendors have been formally told about the illegal changes to the property. As it's a probate sale, the executors can only deny knowledge of things to a certain extent, but once informed then I suspect they have a legal duty to disclose such issues to potential buyers. Conveyancing solicitors should be asking all manner of questions and to not answer truthfully would surely leave the executor(s) open to subsequent legal action of some sort - probably any costs arising from the issue.

 

[oddbod]

We are having discussions amongst ourselves at the moment as to how to proceed, but I think the "softest" option is to approach the Vendor via Estate Agent at first to point out we are aware of problems with "Alterations" (UPVC) and that we are aware CO can NOT have approved.
House Listed in early '80s, UPVC 2007/2009.
Just been to look at UPVC again, it's Nasty and ill fitting as well!! Oh, and a UPVC Door too.
As the House is 1 of a Pair of Semi's (1820's) with later extensions (probably Workshop-y originally) grafted onto the rear of both, the extension is where the UPVC is.
Next doors extension looks relatively untouched (from what we can see from a distance) so should give us some idea of how/what needs re-instating.
We were hoping to complete this Month (Oct 2015) as we need to be out of where we are now by the end of Oct!!
Looks as if plans to purchase this house may be on hold!

 

[oddbod]

Just been re-reading some Paperwork re. House.
Planning Permission (NOT LB Consent) was refused for alterations to windows and Door(and railings, but there are no signs of railings now) 4 years ago (we suspect this was applied for AFTER UPVC fitted!!)
I am beginning to think there may already be some CO involvement in this Property and this could be why there was no question when we offered quite a bit below asking price!

 

[Keith Bowman]

As far as revising your offer is concerned, you can, of course, reduce it right up till you actually exchange contracts..but beware: we had some prospective buyers when we were about to sell our house who first offered 20k under the asking price then, after we had reluctantly accepted it, said they needed another 30k off to bring the price below a stamp duty step which we very reluctantly accepted against our better judgement then, believe it or not, they asked for another 10k off just before we were due to exchange. We told them to jump in the lake and took the house off the market. So the moral is don't push the vendors too hard!

 

[oddbod]

Thank you for the advice about not pushing too hard. We will guesstimate/take advice on reinstalling what should be in place and ask what else has been removed/improved, but I think we may fall short as the Original owner is now dead, so without further evidence it will be a stab in the dark as to how much discount to ask for to return Property to pre-butchery condition (we think it was almost a Virgin 1820's Regency type of dwelling, commissioned as a pair, by 1 Local Family!)

 

[discobarry]

I wonder why we ever bothered with our Conservation Officer, We got all the correct permission for the windows replacing from UPVC to Wood. We weren't allowed the usual storm proofing and so the windows had to be made tight, we live 250m up in the Pennines so we get battered sometimes so it would of been better. Next door but one is listed as well and has all UPVC windows and a UPVC conservatory which they had no permissions for, He didn't batter an eyelid. Going forward we won't get permission for small jobs we will just do whats right by the property and conservation of it. I think by rights i should get permission to restore the plaster inside to lime like it was originally but it's by in large a waste of time. Rant over

 

[garnett]

The answer to that is that there is virtually nobody left to do the enforcement work. It will get worse.

My normal practice in these circumstances is to first contact the estate agent and let them know there is a potential problem so that they can tell the vendor. They then ring up and shout at me and give hundreds of other cases to investigate. I say okay put the cases in writing and I will investigate. It will be before we try to sort out your sale!. They then take legal advice and find out that they haven't got a leg to stand on. They come back and are then nice to me. I then broker a deal to reinstate the timber window in an agreeable period after purchase. If not complied with then enforcement action will follow. Suitable reductions get made in the sale price. Technically I should ask for LBC but I take a light touch to ensure that the work gets done.

The next thing I would do is to let Land Charges know that there is a potential problem which then gets revealed on all future sales. If the seller pulls out, they and the agent now have to inform purchasers of the unauthorised work.

It has become such a problem in my area that I am considering a chargeable service to remedy the situation. Since the aborted HIPPS Training agents became more savvy about the meaning of listing. I no longer hear the 'grade II listing means only the front' nonsense. It takes around 3 hours of time so £180. If agents know that there is a potential solution they tend to cooperate rather than have the sale fall through or risk potential liability for not flagging up a problem that they are aware of.

Hope that gives some insight!

Garnett

 

[Lime]

I'm late to this thread but I'd have asked my solicitor to request details of planning permissions etc.
I can understand the soft option when negotiations are in progress but to have fair negotiations you must be informed of the facts particularly in this case where the purchaser can be held liable to reinstate the illegally removed/altered items.
The vendors cannot duck out of this and if it requires them to take a large discount on their asking price, then so be it.
If they do not know what has been done or cannot provide the necessary paperwork then it must be presumed permission was not obtained.
Oddbod is in a very strong position.
Once vendor's solicitor has picked up the fact that there is a problem with the sale, even if oddbod backs out and/or the relatives refuse to budge, any other potential purchaser will have to be informed of the problem by them.
.......... that is precisely what a solicitor is charged to do when processing a conveyance under Law Society guidlines.
The vendors are in a very weak position and any purchaser should not be expected to pick up the tab on behalf of the estate of the deceased.

 

[MatthewC]

I've got my eye on the Old Rectory next to the church opposite - they sold off the Rectory 40 years ago and with it part of the churchyard wall, which the owners should maintain. There's a part of this near the gateway in very poor repair and, frankly, I'm waiting for the old owner to pass on as there's no merit in approaching her to get it fixed. When she does, I shall make sure that the estate agents know that £10k+ is needed to fix the wall (properly, not with cement!), and I'll tell the solicitors for the estate as well, so that any new owner knows that they must fix it. As said above, the cost should be borne by the estate, and not be an argument with the new owners. Sometimes you have to play the long game...

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm late to this thread but I'd have asked my solicitor to request details of planning permissions etc.
I can understand the soft option when negotiations are in progress but to have fair negotiations you must be informed of the facts particularly in this case where the purchaser can be held liable to reinstate the illegally removed/altered items.
The vendors cannot duck out of this and if it requires them to take a large discount on their asking price, then so be it.
If they do not know what has been done or cannot provide the necessary paperwork then it must be presumed permission was not obtained.
Oddbod is in a very strong position.
Once vendor's solicitor has picked up the fact that there is a problem with the sale, even if oddbod backs out and/or the relatives refuse to budge, any other potential purchaser will have to be informed of the problem by them.
.......... that is precisely what a solicitor is charged to do when processing a conveyance under Law Society guidlines.
The vendors are in a very weak position and any purchaser should not be expected to pick up the tab on behalf of the estate of the deceased.

I agree with all of that in terms of the rights and wrongs of the situation. However, to suggest Oddbod is in a strong position is to assume the vendor will behave rationally. Who knows how they will react? They may take umbrage at being 'caught out' and therefore not accept any offer from Oddbod out of principle for 'messing up' their sale, preferring to sell to someone else - perhaps even at a lower price. Or they may prefer to hold on in a vain hope that someone else may be prepared to overlook the costs of corrective works. The eventual outcome may be the same, but Oddbod would have lost the opportunity. That may or may not matter, which is yet another factor in such negotiations.

The basic facts of the matter may be quite clear but the vendor's emotions may be quite another, and any potential purchaser can only make offers - they cannot compel the vendor to make sensible decisions.