How can I remove grim from old piece of wooden furniture?

[Penners]

The point I was making was don't assume all furniture stored for a 100 years is rubbish

But isn't that the point of this thread? We're discussing the best way to bring an old piece of furniture back into useful service.

I'm a firm believer in using things. Grandfather's silver teapot may be a valuable antique, but it wasn't made to sit unused in a glass display display cabinet, or worse still in a safe. It should be part of the family's daily life, just as grandfather intended.

And if an old piece of vernacular furniture has to be scrubbed up a bit, in order to bring it back into useful service, then scrub away. If some of its "patina" suffers a bit, then don't worry. Once you start using it, you'll be adding patina of your own. Just be sure that you don't actually cause any irrevocable damage.

 

[michael]

Sorry all, you cruel people. Well I did try to correct my ‘slip of the pen’ in my second posting (page 1) but taking another look at my bench, I think Penners is right. “Grim” is probably the correct terminology for this piece of vernacular or should it be 'phraseology' or should it be ……..Oh who gives a **** anyway.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Oh who gives a **** anyway.

Carp?

 

[Schoolmarm]

Oy! :evil:





:lol: :lol:

 

[FamilyWiggs]

:wink:

 

[Hatster]

I'm imagining that "grim" would be a technical term for the revolting matted concoction of ancient spiders' webs, dead flies and dust that I tend to keep finding in hidden corners of our house.

It reminds me of a Welsh builder I know who persists in referring to the 'grotty' in the National Trust garden he volunteers in. It's not that grotty now he's finished with it, though.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

I'm imagining that "grim" would be a technical term for the revolting matted concoction of ancient spiders' webs, dead flies and dust that I tend to keep finding in hidden corners of our house.

It reminds me of a Welsh builder I know who persists in referring to the 'grotty' in the National Trust garden he volunteers in. It's not that grotty now he's finished with it, though.

Nymph of the Grot these sacred springs I keep

And to the murmur of these waters sleep

Ah! Spare my slumbers; gently tread the cave

And drink in silence or in silence lave.

Alexander Pope

I've always thought "Nymph of the Grot" sounds like a very arcane Royal charwoman post. Not unlike "Groom of the Stool".

 

[JoceAndChris]

:lol:

Here's Gareth's grot:

We need to find out 3 things.

1. Whether the word "grot" had anything like its modern meaning between 1688 and 1744.

2. Whether or not the original Latin that Pope translated had any sense of the double meaning of the word, grotty and grotto, or whether he just had to leave off the last syllable for the purposes of tight rythmic control.

3. Whether or not "nymph of the grot" was as funny to Pope as it is to us - my guess is yes.

Come on Hatster!

Pope, apparently was the only person ever to use the word "lave" as a verb.

I haven't laved properly for weeks - there, I'm the second! I definitely qualify as nymph of the grot!

 

[Hatster]

I'll be on the case as soon as I'm back in the Emporium of Learning tomorrow.

 

[Hatster]

An update - it looks so far as though 'grot' was a common and acceptable poetic form of 'grotto', though it does appear to have been used interchangeably with 'grotto' and mainly where the poet needed one syllable rather than two. No implication of 'grotty' appears be showing up as yet, and no use of the word 'grotty' itself in the Literature Online database - unless 'grotty' comes from these connotations of rural?

My favourite grot so far os "Like the green grot where Zeus in secret grew / To stripling godhood" , from Philip Bailey, Festus (now forgotten, but immensely popular on first publication)

 

[Cloudscape]

I had heard that 'grotty' originated in the 1960s as a shortened form of 'grotesque'. I've seen Lennon recorded as having first publicly coined the word (pretty hard to prove). 'Grotesque' (noun and adjective) - the meaning of which has changed a lot over a hundred years or so - comes from 'grotto-esque', I believe. 'Grot' = 'grotto'. The French word is 'grotte', so maybe 'grot' was more common than 'grotto'. Somewhen since the '60s, 'grot' seems to have become the noun from 'grotty' as well. Isn't there a kids' tv character called Grotbags?

I'm off now to file an MP-style expenses claim for undue wear and tear on my g, r, o and t keys. :|

 

[yamin]

Interesting.

Also, from Wictionary

Grotty - clipping of grotesque Most commonly used in New Zealand, Australia and other former British colonies.

Possibly from Scottish Gaelic "grod" meaning "rotten, putrid."

Well, how nice for the colonials! Bless! Can't say I heard it at all during my month in NZ. Like the idea of some burly Highlander spitting the word out!

 

[worms]

"grotty adj made or consisting of groats. cf groaty." - Chambers Scots Dictionary, 1911.
(Groats in this instance being crushed oats as opposed to an old four-penny (Scots) coin which gave rise to the term "not worth a groat").

At the risk of crossing linguistic swords with someone with a much better classical education than myself, I would also question whether Pope was the only person ever to use "lave" as a verb. The same Chambers Scots dictionary has lave as a verb, to draw water, to bale or to throw water and I am sure it appears in print in that context in Scots literature.

 

[Gervase]

A pedant creeps shyly in...

A quick look at the 1989 OED shows lave being used as a verb meaning 'to wash or bathe' by the writer of Beowulf around 1000, by Shakespeare in 1596, Milton in 1637, Bulwer in 1650, Cibber in 1701, Pope in 1725, Scott in 1810, Lytton in 1843 etc. Its use is now mainly poetic, the lexicographers concede. Its etymology seems to be in a conjunction of the Old English 'lafian' (to refresh) with the Latin 'lavare' (to wash).
(There's also another instance of lave as a verb, 'Of the ears: To droop, hang down', on which the OED offers naff-all assistance.)

Grotty is a mere upstart, however. The OED cites its first English use as 1964, when it it was found in A Hard Day's Night and the Daily Mail, being a contraction of 'grotesque'.

Grot as a noun has a multitude of meanings; from the Old English 'particle' (hence groats and grit), through 'weeping and lamentation', a poetical cave or crypt, as a typographer's contraction of 'grotesque' (pre-dating grotty by three years) and finally - from 1971 - as 'dirt and grime'

Oh, and grim can be a noun, but only up to the 15th Century, when it meant 'fury or rage'; last spotted in Harding's 1475 Chronicle with 'The Sarasyns also he slewe with muche gryme'. Now, sadly, 'obs.', says the OED.

I'll get me coat.

 

[Penners]

A pedant creeps shyly in.....
the Latin 'lavare' (to wash).

That root is also to be found, of course, in the French word "laver" - to wash.

PS: We pedants should never be shy. We're the only ones holding the whole mess together. :wink:

 

[Hatster]

"Grotty is a mere upstart, however. The OED cites its first English use as 1964, when it it was found in A Hard Day's Night and the Daily Mail, being a contraction of 'grotesque'."

How fascinating!

I think we have to distinguish between the different meanings of 'grot'.

The Middle English 'grot' meaning 'particle' seems to fade out by C15, BUT is it too much to see it as being incorporated into our modern 'grit' , and maybe even into 'grout'? Possibly (but we might imagine that even if 'grout' comes from the French 'grouter', the people picking up the word heard it as being like their English 'grout' meaning 'porridge', and interpreted it in that way).

'Grot' as in 'weeping and lamentation' is coming from the Old Norse, and apparently coalesces with a similar Old English word to create modern words such as the Scots 'greet' and our modern 'grieve'.

Meanwhile, 'grot' as in 'grotto' is coming from the Romance languages - "[ad. It. grotta (for which Dante has also grotto) = OF. crote, croute, Pr. crota, Sp. and Pg. gruta:{em}pop.L. crupta, grupta (= literary L. crypta), ad. Gr. {kappa}{rho}{guacu}{pi}{tau}{eta} vault; f. {kappa}{rho}{guacu}{pi}{tau}{epsilon}{iota}{nu} to hide. (The mod.F. grotte is from It.)] " (OED) "Grotto" is actually etymologically the same as "crypt"

In the US, apparently, they use/used 'grody' or 'groady' rather than 'grotty' to mean the same thing.

Alas, I grive for the grit in the grotty grout of my grotto!

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Oh, and grim can be a noun, but only up to the 15th Century, when it meant 'fury or rage'; last spotted in Harding's 1475 Chronicle with 'The Sarasyns also he slewe with muche gryme'. Now, sadly, 'obs.', says the OED.

Does its use for a malevolent spirit (in the form of a dog, cf. Shuck, Bargest etc) predate J K Rowling's "The Grim" in the Harry Potter books?

 

[JoceAndChris]

Blimey! A huge well done for the previously shy but enormously impressive pedants and etymologists of PPUK.

It would appear, then, that A Pope wasn't having a secret snigger at the satirical double meaning of the word "grot" then, for a change. But I bet he's having a good chuckle as he looks down on us about this development in its meaning and how reductive that is in the context of his inscription in Stourhead.

Don't worry Worms- that cap doesn't fit me- I got my information about "lave" from a charming, but entirely spurious, source.

"I agree with Jones, that lave is a weak, if not an improper word, and very unworthy Pope; a pitiful shift for the sake of rhyme : I believe Pope was the only person who ever used lave as a verb neuter, a property that Johnson very servilely allows it on the strength of this solitary instance."

extracted from Richard Fenton's "A Barrister's Tour through Somerset" http://www.barnelms.com/RichardFentonStourhead.htm

I found this on The Grim, but I have no doubt others will come along with more real knowledge!:

"The guardian of old churchyards in the form of a black dog, it protected the dead from the Devil, demons and other nefarious supernatural creatures. The dog was often seen on stormy nights and was regarded as a portent of death.

It has been surmised that the Church Grim is a folk memory of a sacrifice. It was believed in the past that the first burial in a churchyard would have to watch over the rest of the dead. A dog may have been buried first in place of a human. An old English tradition was the burial of a live dog in the floor of a newly built church. The phantom dog was supposed to guard the church and it's congragets.

Phantom black dogs are numerous in Britain, and almost every area has its own variant. Although not all of these are thought to be derived from a folk memory of a sacrifice, the practice was once widespread."

 

[Gareth Hughes]

congragets

:shock: :? :shock:

 

[Penners]

congragets

:shock: :? :shock:

Ah, I can help out here:-

"Con" - a widely-recognised compression of "confidence trick".

"Gragets" - the widely-recognised Armenian word for "poetry".

Hence "congragets" - an attempt to earn undeserved literary recognition by publishing a load of b*ll*cks, purporting to be deeply meaningful Armenian poetry.