How can I remove grim from old piece of wooden furniture?

[michael]

I’ve recently retrieved an old ‘L’ shaped corner bench seat from the loft that has probably been up there for at least 100 years or more. It comes in two pieces that join together with each leg of the ‘L’ being about 1350mm long. I think it has a solid pine frame and seat but the back is made of quite thin vertical pitch pine T&G panels nailed to horizontal supporting timbers. The problem is that it’s grubby beyond belief, quite grey and 'cooked mushroom' colour in places but caked in ground in dirt and dust that wont vacuum off some of which is probably slate dust. I tried wiping a small area with a wetted paper towel and the dirt that came off was coal black in colour. Other than that, the structure is quite sound.
Dose any body know the best way to clean it up without causing damage?
I’m tempted to take it outside and scrub it with warm water and washing up liquid and then hose the dirt off but perhaps this may cause warping? Would steam cleaning work or would that also cause the wood to warp. Perhaps there’s a chemical solution or spirit based cleaner that would work. Suggestions appreciated

 

[michael]

Sorry. The title should read "Grime" I think. My spelling is hopeless

 

[JoceAndChris]

I've had problems in the past with wood, water and warping, though the nice old apple crates I found in the sheds here have responded well to the treatment you describe.

If this were my bench I'd probably sand it and paint it.

But if you want it as bare wood I'd use loads of white spirit, hard rubbing, and then think about stain/wax as a finish.

 

[Cloudscape]

I’m tempted to take it outside and scrub it with warm water and washing up liquid and then hose the dirt off

I wouldn't hesitate. Only a tiny bit of soap is needed (that way, surfaces waxes and some patina will probably survive the quick shower). Lots of old furniture looks all the better for a damp cloth. Hosing down is more radical, but as long as you don't scrub too hard at the surface (you'd raise any bare grain), it should be fine. Do it all as quick as you can (to avoid soaking joints that might loosen) on a nice dry day. Let the piece dry out slowly.

If we were talking 'finely veneered', French-polished, or the colour/patina was the whole point of the piece, I wouldn't be advising using water. Obviously.

 

[Penners]

I’m tempted to take it outside and scrub it with warm water and washing up liquid and then hose the dirt off but perhaps this may cause warping?

That's certainly the treatment I would give it. A good rub with a detergenty brush. Maybe avoid hosing and restrict yourself to a gentle rinsing with a sponge and bucket. Have plenty of old towels to hand, and dry off as much of the surplus water as you can, immediately afterwards.

I can't promise that there won't be some warping, but that may rectify itself once the wood has completely dried out. Don't be tempted to leave it out in the sun, or facing any artificial heat-source, because that would probably exacerbate warping. Just allow it to dry at its own pace, naturally.

 

[michael]

Thanks Joce and Chris
I found some other old bits of timber up in the loft (pine planks) in similar condition. I’ve taken these outside and scrubbed them with water and washing up liquid which turned the whole surface into a grey soapy mud I then put them up against a wall and hosed them down to reveal a beautiful colouration underneath. They’re out there now drying off. I’ll wait and see how they turn out.
I think there’s probably also a nice bit of aged colour and patina on the surface of the bench under the grime which I think would be lost if I sanded it down. As its old pine, I would probably end up with a bright orange coloured bench.
The White spirit idea sounds good but again am I not going to end up with a grey muddy dissolved dirt surface that will again need copious amounts of water to wash off?
Or perhaps gallons of white spirit?
If I can get the grime off, I was thinking of using a bit of left over Osmo polyx. What do you think? I know it’s meant for floors.

 

[michael]

Suggestions noted Cloudspace and Penners .
Many thanks

 

[Lime]

I can see this is the period Property forum and not period furniture.
The advice being given to treat old (and unknown) furniture is typical of the modern attitude to anything old.
Just imagine if old houses were subject to the treatments being suggested.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Well, I am sure that we have all tried various ways to clean our old floor boards, stone floors, marble surrounds, paint work etc etc, using all sorts of tried and tested traditional recipes, as well as some more drastic modern chemicals, and everything has been more or less ok.

 

[JoceAndChris]

I can see this is the period Property forum and not period furniture.
The advice being given to treat old (and unknown) furniture is typical of the modern attitude to anything old.
Just imagine if old houses were subject to the treatments being suggested.

I think that was a visit from the patina police! Sorry Lime to have annoyed you with our suggestions - we perhaps should have ascertained, first, whether or not it was a precious antique with a patina to be saved.

A conservative and expert approach is of course called for when dealing with fine antiques and wood within period properties. In fact, I've just sacked my window cleaner because I'm worried his modern methods of cleaning are not good for my windows- he comes here with a lorry of specially treated water than is squirted at high pressure at my windows - the water is such that it does not need any squeegee or polishing to finish off, but dries smear free and the whole house is done in about 20 minutes for £15. But that's a lot of water pouring down the windows and walls, and creeping behind the cement render, so I've put a stop to it.

But as for old pine - you wouldn't deny that much of it was intended to be painted and was badly stripped in the 80's when stripped pine was enormously fashionable: now the fashion has swung the other way again and I for one am glad of it. Alright, I had some horrified moments watching veneered and varnished mahog. wardrobes being Farrowed and Balled in Crouch End, but at least these pieces of furniture are being given a new life. And they didn't have good patina to start with. I certainly intend to repaint interior wood that was wrongfully, to my mind, stripped in the 80's.

Wouldn't you say that really good patina is only achieved with a minimum of 100 years of soft rubbing, dusting, and waxing, and keeping the furniture out of sunlight and the way of radiators? As such it's pretty rare and the antiques which have it command a high price. Most affordable antiques, like period properties, have been significantly screwed up with inappropriate treatments and do not have good patina to save.

 

[Penners]

The advice being given to treat old (and unknown) furniture is typical of the modern attitude to anything old.
Just imagine if old houses were subject to the treatments being suggested.

I completely disagree. The piece being described by Michael is clearly an elderly piece of simple, vernacular wood furniture. It's not a Sheraton table. A good scrub with soap and water is the first resort for most problems of ancient grime, whether on furniture, fireplaces, floorboards, beams or whatever.

The modern attitude would be "throw it out and get a new one".

 

[Cloudscape]

A good deal of current thinking regarding the treatment of old buildings is subject to modern tastes and modern sensibilities. Some of this thinking is also apparent on PPUK. This includes recommended treatments for parts of listed buildings, where the character of the building will be changed.

My last paragraph (above) kind of covers how I feel about old furniture. Most of mine, even the stuff that's 200-400 years old, has been through the wars (several, now I come to think about it) and has the scars to prove it. Some of it has been radically altered or re-thought over the centuries and people didn't balk at chopping furniture up and nailing it back together in different ways.

True, Michael's attic find might be a precious gem of vernacular furniture. In which case, I'd have hoped that Michael looked closely at the nails that he mentions. How old are they? Plus, how 'special'/old does the piece look? A photo would be good. However, pitch pine is quite resilient. I have a couple of pieces that have been treated very badly (not by me) and they still look fantastic. Pitch pine is hugely more forgiving than many other woods. Nowadays, with "modern attitude", people lovingly beeswax farmhouse tables that were formerly scrubbed hard and had their tops scraped. Most of my furniture shows mop marks round the feet - in some cases, the wood has suffered. Most of my chairs have been dragged across stone floors and the front feet show this. And, as I mentioned, some of my furniture has been chopped up and re-made (the bits that weren't abandoned in barns and left to rot).

The Victorians, with their own 'modern attitude' rode roughshod over history, chopping up and re-using Elizabethan and Georgian furniture and panelling, carving old oak in ways that were often far too 'knowing' (including carving spurious dates onto furniture and fireplaces), exposed beams, painted houses black and white, dolloped shellac on everything, ebonized and gilded. I think we're a lot less cavalier about history than they were.

Michael's got a filthy piece of furniture. The attic dust - the nasty black stuff that is probably a combination of soot, lime dust and slate dust - is, in my opinion, best removed without rubbing, as there's a danger of it acting as an abrasive. A quick sloosh with water (IF the piece would suit such treatment) is probably the kindest way of getting the muck off quickly.

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

I can see this is the period Property forum and not period furniture.
The advice being given to treat old (and unknown) furniture is typical of the modern attitude to anything old.
Just imagine if old houses were subject to the treatments being suggested.

I'm not just imagining it, I've actually tried cleaning bits of my house, and I have to confess that I like the results. But I realise now that this is a reprehensibly modern approach to living in an old property and will cease henceforth.

I did enjoy your little rant, Lime, but what should michael be doing with his bench? Clearly many of us have no idea how to tackle this so please enlighten us.

Personally I find that cleaning old things that are covered in crud can make them useable again. I've always thought of soap and water as being a fairly traditional cleaning materials - in fact I'm sure I have an old household managment book from around 1905 which specifically mentions the use of water in this context.

 

[Moo]

what should michael be doing with his bench? Clearly many of us have no idea how to tackle this so please enlighten us.

I'd like to second that.

xx

 

[Hatster]

yes, I for one want to know how to remove grim.

 

[JoceAndChris]

:lol:
Mr Grim will come for us all,one day.

 

[Penners]

yes, I for one want to know how to remove grim.

Well, I'd like to thank Michael for adding to the richness of our mother tongue. I think it's absolutely appropriate that, when grime gets beyond the just grimey stage, it should become known as "grim".

 

[Pford75]

Extract from Driscolls antiques guide on antique restoration.......

The main purpose of antique restoration is to maintain the value and worth of the piece. As such, the usual main basis for the antique's worth is its age or its functionality. In restoring antique furniture, it is often necessary to first examine whether the age or the functionality of the item should be emphasized or prioritized.

Note that there are some antique furniture collectors who value the “patina” of the item. As such, they make it a point to examine if the appearance of the item still reflects its age and aesthetic value. In such cases where the age of the furniture should be reflected by its appearance, light cleaning should be made.

Light cleaning refers to the form of restoration that involves the process of removing the disfiguring dirt, grime, stain, or any other foreign materials that the furniture acquired through the years. However, careful consideration to maintain the “old” appearance of the furniture should be made. This type of antique restoration is usually applicable for paintings, jars, pots, goblets, and other small furniture.

On the other hand, there are some cases when the antique furniture is valued only when they seem useful or functional. This is usually the case of antique cabinets, chairs, tables, drawers and other storage furniture. As such, light cleaning will no longer be sufficient. Refinishing, stripping, and repairing should also be made. Such processes may entail the replacement of some parts of the antique furniture. Polishing and repainting can also be considered. However, regardless of the process that will be applied, it is important to note that the value of the antique should be retained or increased after the restoration process.

Sounds like the key piece of advice is to determine the basis of the antiques worth. Seems to me that if a specialist antqiue restorer is suggesting refinishing, stripping, painting etc. then these are not quite as radical as some might suggest

 

[Lime]

The point I was making was don't assume all furniture stored for a 100 years is rubbish... and don't assume you can tell until you have carefully cleaned a portion to see.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Harrumph! Preaching to the converted.