Nemesis
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Well, the one we had did - stews and stottie cakes...
- Thread starter Cloudscape
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Cloudscape
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chuckey said:
I really am going to have to repair the firebox and test this contraption properly. :wink:
Nemesis
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Larger fire though. Different design too.
Home farm has a large example.
http://www.beamish.org.uk/guide-homefarm.html
The pitmen's row have tiny rooms.
It's the only form of heat we had when I was small.
Home farm has a large example.
http://www.beamish.org.uk/guide-homefarm.html
The pitmen's row have tiny rooms.
It's the only form of heat we had when I was small.
Nemesis
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Here's a pic of a larger, later example:
Space under may have been for soot removal, thinking about it.
I have no doubt these people will be able to give more details:
http://www.britainsheritage.co.uk/antique-kitchen%20ranges.htm
Space under may have been for soot removal, thinking about it.
I have no doubt these people will be able to give more details:
http://www.britainsheritage.co.uk/antique-kitchen%20ranges.htm
Aidan
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Cloudscape said:
All the heat is going up the chimney with the excess air; there's nowhere else it can be going. The heat is causing a howling gale to blow up the chimney and it's taking away both the products of combustion and all the heat that has been generated.
Having said that, I can't suggest a fix, I have no particular knowledge of stoves. I'd think you need to control the air flow, but too much restriction will cause it to spill smoke snd flue gases into the house.
jocelyn plummer
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Wow! Surely there is somebody who can repair/ find replacement bits for you. It would be a great asset as well as a lovely feature.
I'm no expert in stoves but I'd have thought it would take a good couple of days to get it warm enough to provide any heat to the room - certainly more than a couple of hours anyway. There must be half a tonne of cast iron there to heat up, plus the chimney and fire bricks. As Penners says I think it needs loads of coal to start it up but then should tick over gently.
our fireplace takes a couple of hours to heat up and there's only an iron gate and a sheet of copper.
Once it was hot I dont see why it would be less efficient than a modern one :?: unless all the heat was able to go out the chimney. I'd have a good play around with the vents etc - will probably take a bit of patience but be well worth it! would be great to have a cup-a-tea off!
our fireplace takes a couple of hours to heat up and there's only an iron gate and a sheet of copper.
Once it was hot I dont see why it would be less efficient than a modern one :?: unless all the heat was able to go out the chimney. I'd have a good play around with the vents etc - will probably take a bit of patience but be well worth it! would be great to have a cup-a-tea off!
i AM SO ENVIOUS THE STOVE LOOKS MAGNIFICENT. I can remember visiting my Grandmother who lived in an old welsh Cottage with Clay tiles on earth floor. The Main Kitchen / Living room had a stove very similar to this. It managed to heat the whole room but was constantly kept running, having said that the cottage suite sat as near to it as possible, either to be as warm as possible or probably more likely to gain access to the kettle for the many pots of tea that always seemed to be brewing. So many cottages have lost these stoves. I recently went to my grandmothers old cottage, it now has laminate floors and the fireplace filled in, just a blank plasterboard wall. No character whatsoever.
You lucky thing, I also doubt being a listed building that you would be allowed to take it out. The CO may allow it to be moved sideways for a modern stove if you use the efficiency argument in these days of environmentalism. But please keep it and enjoy it.
Ask the CO on advice for heating the room he may have an idea
and radiators can always be covered up! Otherwise sweaters always are good aswell as a duvet!
You lucky thing, I also doubt being a listed building that you would be allowed to take it out. The CO may allow it to be moved sideways for a modern stove if you use the efficiency argument in these days of environmentalism. But please keep it and enjoy it.
Ask the CO on advice for heating the room he may have an idea
and radiators can always be covered up! Otherwise sweaters always are good aswell as a duvet!
Cloudscape
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Apologies for the huge images.
A + B = Plates that can be slid in and out to adjust flue. A moves, B doesn't.
C = Covers front flue. Knob D turns to adjust flue aperture.
E = Smoke/room-heat cowl (Flap F is adjustable - see detail pic below). The whole cowl can be lifted off.
G = Access for brushing flue? Currently not removeable, but looks like it is.
H = Hotplate - see details below. It's beautifully made in two parts.
I = Small hatch for soot access (thanks, Nemesis for giving me a clue about this, and the one below the oven)
J + K = Vents for adjusting over temperature
L = Soot access hatch (thanks again, Nemesis)
M = Slide-out flue plate
N = Front moulding is decorative, but there is a void behind here, you can put your hand in from the ash-collection area under the firebox. Could hot coals have been placed in here to boost the oven temperature?
O = Cover for flue access
P = Liftable lid to sealed chamber. I can see this might have been for water, if you used a ladle. The inside does, on closer inspection, show some corrosion (or even limescale build-up). See detail pics below.
Q = Decorative only
R = Non-removeable 'soot access' hatch. Looks integral to the body of the range.
S = Decorative only. Not found a void behind here... yet.
T = There should be a neat square hole here. The chimney sweep dismantled the firebricks and they crumbled. See detail pic (bottom left). The two areas outlined in yellow are holes to send the heat backwards to the back boiler.
It would seem that this range was either installed just to heat the back boiler, or has been modified to do so.
In the detail pics can see that the removed soot plate O shows that the flue is bricked up.
In the last detail pic, you can see the replacement side plate in the firebox. At the top, there appears to be a louvre (on the oven side). I realize now that this would have sent heat over the oven (just like the Rayburn we have in the kitchen).
So, basically, when the Rayburn was added (directly behind this range), the range was left to contribute to heating water, but the rest of its duties passed to the Rayburn.
Penners
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Have you ever considered a job with Ikea? :wink:
H interests me. It looks very much like the aperture that's used for adding fuel to a solid fuel Aga. I wonder, therefore, whether Nemesis was right in suggesting that the oven was heated by lighting a fire inside - or by adding hot coals like a bread oven. The coals were then removed and the food cooked with the residual heat.
Maybe...?
H interests me. It looks very much like the aperture that's used for adding fuel to a solid fuel Aga. I wonder, therefore, whether Nemesis was right in suggesting that the oven was heated by lighting a fire inside - or by adding hot coals like a bread oven. The coals were then removed and the food cooked with the residual heat.
Maybe...?
chuckey
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My mother in law had a range similar to the ones shown and my wife says the oven could be used by simply shuffling the various vents around. This leads me to think that the plates A&B were to vent the hot fumes from around the oven and water heater up into the main flue. I believe you mentioned a side vent in the grate? So I would guess the modus operandi was to first get the chimney hot, then damp down the grate flue while opening up the side vents and flue, the hot gases would then br drawn to the side around the oven then up the chimney. The remains of all these various bits will have to be found or fabricated. Best of luck!
Frank
Frank
Penners
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All together now:
"Ooooh, you push the damper in
And you pull the damper out
And the smoke goes up the chimney just the same."
"Ooooh, you push the damper in
And you pull the damper out
And the smoke goes up the chimney just the same."
Cloudscape
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H intriques me too - the fact that you can open up such a large circular hole.
This is the new-fangled Rayburn that took over the cooking duties.
This is the new-fangled Rayburn that took over the cooking duties.
I have a very, very similar fieplace to this, although mine has a tap on the boileer and a cast iron back. Has it got a name? I think mine is called Excelsior and has the iron supplier's name on it. I undersntad there are regional variations and ones in the East Midlands tend to have a hot water boiler with a tap on one side.
I purchased mine from Ebay and put in an open fireplace in my small kitchen - it fits perfect. It doesn't work but have since felt guitly as perhaps I should have put it in one of the living rooms - it is a cottage and I suspect it would not be in such a small room of the house and would have only had one actual 'parlour room'. I have a pic but can't work out how to attach it!
I purchased mine from Ebay and put in an open fireplace in my small kitchen - it fits perfect. It doesn't work but have since felt guitly as perhaps I should have put it in one of the living rooms - it is a cottage and I suspect it would not be in such a small room of the house and would have only had one actual 'parlour room'. I have a pic but can't work out how to attach it!
Cloudscape
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Yep - so's mine. It says 'Dale Excelsior'. The supplier's name is also on it.
Nemesis
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My kitchener has a similar set of rings - you add fuel for the fire in that case, as it's on top of the fire itself.
It may be that the heat sent from the fire to heat around the stove was sufficient to be able to place a pan or kettle on, but I would think smoke might then escape. It is just possible that there is a small space where charcoal or coals could be placed (and hopefully fumes removed by flue - older type charcoal burners in kitchens were lethal) for cooking on when the full fire wasn't lit. In older kitchens it was at times the case that a small separate charcoal burner was in place.
In the example below the grate can be altered in order that fire size can be regulated.
Thought this might interest - from Dorothy Hartley's invaluable 1954 Food in England. She makes mention of a back boiler but says they weren't really available before 1880 and I don't think even then common. It would be interesting to know if the side water container is able to be heated or is simply a container.
Somewhere I know I have a book which details care of these stoves, but can't at the moment lay my hands on it. I had to hunt for Dorothy Hartley. One day I will have a whole room full of bookshelves...
Anyhow, started me off thinking about all this, to investigate further. The pictures are fascinating, thanks for sharing those.
And of course stove black is required, in large amounts, to keep it all gleaming. I can recall my mother doing this, with the steel burnished and the space for the ashes under cleared and then whitened with whitewash.
In our (former) scullery the flagstones had been shaped to take the range when it was fitted, as the front protruded into the room. It's a narrow room and the heat would have been overpowering.
The house had two ranges at one point, one in the large kitchen and one in the scullery, in the days when it was a yeoman's farmhouse. These must have varied from the original late Georgian ones updated to Victorian ones, and then a solid fuel Rayburn, according to evidence and village recollections. There is a hobgrate also in what would have been the parlour, I suspect all sources of heat were precious and utilised.
A washhouse with copper was added in the 19th century. At one end a cart shed, the other a washhouse. Nearby is the pigsty, next to the privy - built in to the attached barn. I suspect the copper was used to boil up the swill at times.
Water was drawn either from the adjacent burn or from a well fifty metres away.
It may be that the heat sent from the fire to heat around the stove was sufficient to be able to place a pan or kettle on, but I would think smoke might then escape. It is just possible that there is a small space where charcoal or coals could be placed (and hopefully fumes removed by flue - older type charcoal burners in kitchens were lethal) for cooking on when the full fire wasn't lit. In older kitchens it was at times the case that a small separate charcoal burner was in place.
In the example below the grate can be altered in order that fire size can be regulated.
Thought this might interest - from Dorothy Hartley's invaluable 1954 Food in England. She makes mention of a back boiler but says they weren't really available before 1880 and I don't think even then common. It would be interesting to know if the side water container is able to be heated or is simply a container.
Somewhere I know I have a book which details care of these stoves, but can't at the moment lay my hands on it. I had to hunt for Dorothy Hartley. One day I will have a whole room full of bookshelves...
Anyhow, started me off thinking about all this, to investigate further. The pictures are fascinating, thanks for sharing those.
And of course stove black is required, in large amounts, to keep it all gleaming. I can recall my mother doing this, with the steel burnished and the space for the ashes under cleared and then whitened with whitewash.
In our (former) scullery the flagstones had been shaped to take the range when it was fitted, as the front protruded into the room. It's a narrow room and the heat would have been overpowering.
The house had two ranges at one point, one in the large kitchen and one in the scullery, in the days when it was a yeoman's farmhouse. These must have varied from the original late Georgian ones updated to Victorian ones, and then a solid fuel Rayburn, according to evidence and village recollections. There is a hobgrate also in what would have been the parlour, I suspect all sources of heat were precious and utilised.
A washhouse with copper was added in the 19th century. At one end a cart shed, the other a washhouse. Nearby is the pigsty, next to the privy - built in to the attached barn. I suspect the copper was used to boil up the swill at times.
Water was drawn either from the adjacent burn or from a well fifty metres away.
Nemesis
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Looked at Clean and Decent 1960 by Lawrence Wright.
There's a history of hot water supply to bathrooms, often by gas boiler.
He has this to say however:
By this time (1867) the hot water boiler built into the kitchen range was fairly common. Many such installations seem to have been put in by 1869, for in December of that year there was a whole series of fearful explosions in kitchens. In one such near Manchester, a lady and her daughter were seated at the fire, the former was killed and the latter scalded; the ceiling was brought down, the walls battered, the windows smashed; a cat and dog crouching by the fire also died. The cause of these bangs was the practice of putting the hot water storage cylinder near the top of the house, and with no safety valve. The cold water tank aloft freezes unobserved; hot water is drawn off and not replaced; the boiler runs dry; the cold tank thaws, and cold water enters the red-hot boiler. If the boiler is kept very small, and the cylinder is put downstairs, a freeze-up aloft will merely stop the flow at the taps; the cylinder and boiler remain full, and there can be no explosion. The plumbers learned these simple truths, at the expense of their customers and their dumb pets.
The hot water cylinder, near the range, was vertical, of copper, and uninsulated. No really orderly sequence of development in hot water plumbing can be traced and dated. There might still be no cold water tank aloft to provide pressure, but a hand pump, perhaps in the basement, so that a servant could work it, could send both cold and hot water up the the bath and basins.
I add that this would have not been in more humble dwellings, and not in those where there was no ready water supply.
My own home only had a piped water supply laid around the mid twentieth century, I believe, along with bath and indoor WC.
Slightly off topic, but one day I think I would like to build a 'real' bread oven where the wash copper once stood.
http://www.danlepard.com/content/pages/applejack.htm
There's a history of hot water supply to bathrooms, often by gas boiler.
He has this to say however:
By this time (1867) the hot water boiler built into the kitchen range was fairly common. Many such installations seem to have been put in by 1869, for in December of that year there was a whole series of fearful explosions in kitchens. In one such near Manchester, a lady and her daughter were seated at the fire, the former was killed and the latter scalded; the ceiling was brought down, the walls battered, the windows smashed; a cat and dog crouching by the fire also died. The cause of these bangs was the practice of putting the hot water storage cylinder near the top of the house, and with no safety valve. The cold water tank aloft freezes unobserved; hot water is drawn off and not replaced; the boiler runs dry; the cold tank thaws, and cold water enters the red-hot boiler. If the boiler is kept very small, and the cylinder is put downstairs, a freeze-up aloft will merely stop the flow at the taps; the cylinder and boiler remain full, and there can be no explosion. The plumbers learned these simple truths, at the expense of their customers and their dumb pets.
The hot water cylinder, near the range, was vertical, of copper, and uninsulated. No really orderly sequence of development in hot water plumbing can be traced and dated. There might still be no cold water tank aloft to provide pressure, but a hand pump, perhaps in the basement, so that a servant could work it, could send both cold and hot water up the the bath and basins.
I add that this would have not been in more humble dwellings, and not in those where there was no ready water supply.
My own home only had a piped water supply laid around the mid twentieth century, I believe, along with bath and indoor WC.
Slightly off topic, but one day I think I would like to build a 'real' bread oven where the wash copper once stood.
http://www.danlepard.com/content/pages/applejack.htm
Cloudscape
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I love the idea of using a bread oven to cook pizzas. 8)
We had a bread oven, now removed, but you can see where it was, because no tall the stonework was removed. The wash boiler ended up in the garden. None of the stone or brickwork remains of that really.
We have two back boilers - one on the range, (where it's quite easy to exclude the heat from it) and one on the Rayburn behind. There is also an immersion heater, and a central heating coil... all acting on the same tank. No radiators, no safety valves, nothing. :shock:
We've never had everything on at once. The immersion blows the fuse, and the Rayburn needs re-roping. But apparently the tank does boil. There's a ruined plastic bath to prove it.
I have heard of tanks exploding and serious injury or death being the result. A neighbour's tank boiled up into and out of the header tank, and she narrowly missed a scalding deluge.
Back to the range, I think the void under the oven (below all openable bits) is a clue that you might have been able to place hot coals there? I still wonder about the water container too. There's no vents at all for steam. Just the hatch.
I do wonder slightly about the condition of the boiler behind the range, since it's completely out of sight. :?
We had a bread oven, now removed, but you can see where it was, because no tall the stonework was removed. The wash boiler ended up in the garden. None of the stone or brickwork remains of that really.
We have two back boilers - one on the range, (where it's quite easy to exclude the heat from it) and one on the Rayburn behind. There is also an immersion heater, and a central heating coil... all acting on the same tank. No radiators, no safety valves, nothing. :shock:
We've never had everything on at once. The immersion blows the fuse, and the Rayburn needs re-roping. But apparently the tank does boil. There's a ruined plastic bath to prove it.
I have heard of tanks exploding and serious injury or death being the result. A neighbour's tank boiled up into and out of the header tank, and she narrowly missed a scalding deluge.
Back to the range, I think the void under the oven (below all openable bits) is a clue that you might have been able to place hot coals there? I still wonder about the water container too. There's no vents at all for steam. Just the hatch.
I do wonder slightly about the condition of the boiler behind the range, since it's completely out of sight. :?
Aidan
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Nemesis said:
Happened recently, redundant pipes capped off with water left in a back boiler, apparently.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/7093038.stm
I'd think that there were 3 flue-ways originally, each 1 brick square, so that the flue gases could be diverted to the oven and/or or back boiler by moving A, B, and/or C. The brickwork has probably crumbled, the flue dampers don't work and there is an uncontrolled gale roaring up the chimney. All the heat is being carried up the chimney.
Be careful if you try to move or fix it, old cast iron is brittle and virtually unweldable.
Nemesis
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That's an awful news report - how sad.
I agree - once there would have been flues which have been either bricked up when a back boiler was installed (it's possibly a retro fit) or have simply blocked up.
I agree - once there would have been flues which have been either bricked up when a back boiler was installed (it's possibly a retro fit) or have simply blocked up.