Grand Designs - lime confusion?

[Penners]

I'm interested in the views of all you lime specialists in last night's Grand Designs (28 March).

The couple were building a modern, modular, timberframe home, but using a limecrete floor raft and what was described as "a new lime material" to render the walls. This was apparently all specified by their architect - with whom they fell out.

What surprised me was that the limecrete was poured over a damp-proof membrane. Doesn't that entirely negate one of its main benefits - the ability to disperse subsoil damp? Having poured the limecrete (in winter!!) they then then apparently compounded the confusion by covering it with a cement screed.

The rendering appeared to be applied over some sort of mesh, on top of what the Blessed Kevin described as "fluffy boards". Any idea what that system was?

OK - the benefits of limecrete/leca for thermal insulation were obviously important, as was its carbon footprint benefit. And to their credit, they used Thermafleece in the walls. But the whole impression was one of confused thinking, compounded by an architect who went off in a huff, and clients who wouldn't talk to her.

Did I fail to appreciate some other principles at work in this, or was it a right old lash-up?

 

[MdB]

As it was a new house, the DPC would have covered the entire ground floor without any gaps and is likely to last a long time. The normal problem with DPCs is that they are retrofitted to old houses and are only fitted to floor areas and don't go under the walls as a continous sheet. If there is a high water table, this can force the water up the walls causing problems (like I have).

Yes the DPC will be negating the breathable properties of the lime but it appears to be a good decision as it is a new build and can be put in properly.

 

[Nemesis]

What puzzled me last night was the fact there had been a previous GD where the limecrete went wrong, it was laid in winter, there was talk of glass and plaster walls, the architect and clients fell out... it was certainly a feeling I'd seen it all before! Husband kept teling me I couldn't have and it was a new series, with no mention of repeats in the TV schedule. In fact we discussed it on this forum I'm sure.

This morning I dug out some back copies of GD (I used to buy them when Adam at SAVE wrote the In Peril column, which GD dropped and so lost a customer...) and sure enough... February 2006, and the blurb tells me 'In the last series of the TV show, actor Andrew Davies and his wife Lowri embarked on an ambitious experimental eco-build... after a long fractious journey they are ready to move in... but (yawn...) will there be a final twist in the tale?'

I suppose the limecrete can be laid over a membrane in a modern build, no problems, it's more eco friendly than a concrete floor.

The bit which confuses me in the mag is the bit which reads 'although they opted for a traditional cement and plaster interior...'

 

[skier-hughes]

I missed the one last night, but thought they were revisiting previous builds to see how they were getting on now they were hopefully finished? Was it just the house build? I'll see it tonight I expect.

Graham

 

[Nemesis]

Well it was mostly repeating past stuff with a bit of update.

And it's all getting so samey - different house, same old cliches.

Winter is closing in... delays... will they finish before cash runs out... architect commits hari-kari etc etc.

 

[Flyfisher]

Perhaps the 'lash-up' feeling was the result of the latest building regs being applied (because it was a new build) together with the use of 'traditional' materials?

The use of lime in such circumstances is good from a 'green' perspective (i.e. less embedded energy etc) but its breathability virtues are somewhat irrelevant if a complete DPC is used, as per modern regs.

I also thought this series was an update of the earlier one, not completely new.

 

[plumbers mate]

At least they opted out of the public toilet effect of walls with glittery bits of glass in them.

The final house needed the walls painting and a bit of clutter around then it would have looked a lot better -- IMHO (not a minimalist)

 

[Nemesis]

I think it must be a bit of both - I think the Hellifield programme was all new. I have to say I don't watch it a great deal so possibly it is a re-hash of earlier ones mixed with a few new.

There was no indication of how the crumbling lime floor was solved as far as I recall, unless I missed that.

Lime is certainly a more environmentally good product that cement. It's the 'traditional' cement interior I thought an interesting comment!


Bit like 'traditional' ie chemical farming versus this new fangled organic stuff.

 

[middi]

I did not see the show, I would assume, from what has been discussed, that the tendancy for architects nowdays is to use traditional materials purely on thermal efficiency and eco-friendly grounds, whilst doing a balancing act with the available budget.

I think this is a good idea.

Traditional materials used in modern builds are not intended to perform in the characteristic way as we know it, simply because in the modern new build they are intermingled with modern non porous materials. If we can use them for most of their other good qualities, great.

 

[biffvernon]

Wake up you peeps. Of course it was a repeat programme - except for the section after the final advert break when our Kev visited them and stayed the night. That was the new bit.

The following Trade Secrets on More 4 actually had one or two nice bits (no, not the sofa bimbos) on paint and other green issues. I liked the demo of glass in lime and was just about to try some out but, Plumbers Mate, you've put me off

 

[Nemesis]

Well I reckon it's a con when a prog is mostly a rehash of old stuff and it doesn't say repeat.

Glass in lime... well, you could use your old beer bottles I suppose, see what it looks like.

I thought the place looked barren, where do they store books, papers, clutter?

 

[Penners]

At least they opted out of the public toilet effect of walls with glittery bits of glass in them.

But only because the effect wasn't glittery enough for Blodwyn (or whatever her name was).

 

[Nemesis]

Lowri. I said so in a post above.

Do try to keep up Penrose.

 

[Penners]

That's not like me. Normally I hang on your every word.

 

[Nemesis]

Hmmm... too much Sanatogen again, addles the brain.

 

[Gervase]

Middi's right - there's nothing wrong with using limecrete as part of a modern building, complete with DPM, radon barrier and whatever you like. Limecrete works beautifully in traditional buildings because it can braethe, but that is only one of its advantages, and breathability is not required in new builds (in fact Building Regs would seem to suggest that - trickle vents aside - a breathing building is distinctly undesirable!).
In this case the limecrete seemed largely to be used because of its insulating qualities and its low carbon footprint.
It would have been nice to have seen the walls done with hemp and lime, but I fear the chap from Pobol y Cwm was wary enough of lime render and limecrete.
The winter pour did seem bizarre, though. Nigel and Tom at Ty Mawr (who supplied the materials) would certainly have counselled against that, so it must have been down to the architect and the client.
And £15K, even for a large floor like that, seemed a bit OTT. I would have costed the materials at a shade over £10K, so it would seem that he was stung royally for labour and plant charges!

 

[Penners]

Nigel and Tom at Ty Mawr (who supplied the materials) would certainly have counselled against [a winter pour], so it must have been down to the architect and the client.

What amazed me was the the architect - having apparently specified the material - didn't appear to warn them about the dos and don'ts of its use.

£15K, even for a large floor like that, seemed a bit OTT

Was it £15k for the pour, or did that element go £15k over budget? I understood the latter, but my grasp on reality is tenuous at best...

For all that, the total spend was put at £280k, and it has to be said that - whatever your views on the aesthetics - they got a hell of a house for that price.

 

[skier-hughes]

Isn't Pobol y cwm the welsh soap opera?

 

[Nemesis]

Yes. The owner is an actor in that.

 

[Jon Maine]

Well, I have a little inside information on this one, Nigel at Ty Mawr lime specified the floor and the "glaster". They also were filmed at their establishment by Kermit McClouds lot about the floor. They did offer support but inexperienced contractors were appointed by either the client or contractor. The weak section of floor homed in on was apparently where the mixer had been washed out.

This has come from someone who was sat on the sofa next to Nigel whilst the first show was on.

Kermit, Kevin or whatever his name is tried to get me to to say on camera I was doing up my place to spite the concrete lump next door. I am doing it inspite of its prescence but thats as strong as spite gets. So maybe a tad little manipulative??

Well anyhow my two penneths worth...

Am not sure if I can get up on the 11th to Cadogan whats the ticket situation like???

Plastering going well, Julie Haddow is working hard with less than a month to go, only thing shes not here friday as shes teaching lime plastering at Ty Mawr ;(