Grade 2 listed Victorian School

[vicky whitworth]

Our village school is moving out of its listed grade 2 Victorian building (which is beautiful) into a new purpose built monstrosity (which resembles an Ikea store). The old building was not maintained by the Church (it's a COfE school) and as a result the building has severe structural problems. I have opposed the planning applications for the new building and written to the Bishop of Exeter to complain but planning permission for the new school has been given and the kids will move into their new school next year.

So that just leaves the old building which it is planned to sell off - probably for residential development. Our parish council has written to the conservation officer asking her to take a strong line on preserving the external fabric. Our historical society has written to Spab and the Victorian Society for support but it's too recent a building for Spab and the Victorian Society don't seem to be too interested.

I would like to voice my opinion too as I think it is disgusting that the old building was allowed to fall into disrepair and that educating the children on the importance of protecting their heritage isn't considered important. Any advice on what I could do? Has anyone else had any success with this sort of problem? It's too late to stop it no longer being a school but I'd like to see the internal fabric preserved as well as the external. Thanks, Vicky

 

[Moo]

Nemesis ?

Nemesis ?

Nemesis ?

Paging Nemesis....

 

[Nemesis]

Call SAVE


http://www.savebritainsheritage.org


But - if a building is not listed nor in a conservation area, there's not a lot can be done to prevent demolition. It's a growing problem, this one of school buildings - the replacements are usually awful too, and not going to last, but there you go.

I appreciate this one is listed though... and I wonder how bad the supposed structural problems are...

Call also the Ancient Monuments Society, which should be consulted on any demolition, and your regional English Heritage office and ask for support.

The Victorian Society should have been interested...

Can you tell us where the building is, I can look up the listing?

 

[vicky whitworth]

Nemesis, thanks so much for the helpful addresses. I'll contact all of these. The village is Chardstock, Devon. The school is St Andrews and it's both listed and in a conservation area. It also has an unusual history and I heard that the structural repairs would be £300,000 versus the £3m the tax payer is coughing up for the new school. Although it's a CofE school apparently the tax payer pays for the new building work. It is in a bad state - rumour has it a lintel fell down in a classroom but that sounds like exaggeration to me. Vicky

 

[Nemesis]

Ah, but the government is committed to school renewals - whether needed or not.

 

[Nemesis]

Here's the listing description:


http://www.heritagegateway.org.uk/Gateway/Results_Single.aspx?uid=87763&resourceID=5

Listed Buildings Online |

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Building Name: St Andrews School
Parish: Chardstock
District: East Devon
County: Devon
Postcode: EX13 7BX
LBS Number: 87763
Grade: II
Date Listed: 19 October 1984
Date of Last Amendment: 19 October 1984
Date Delisted:
National Grid Reference: ST3092404485

Listing Text:

ST 3004 CHARDSTOCK CHURCH STREET
19/79 CHARDSTOCK

St Andrews School
GV
II

Village school, formerly industrial school. The original school built in 1839
enlarged 1853/6 and 1875. Dated 1853. Formerly St Andrews College and Industrial
Schools founded by Rev C Woodcock.
Knapped flint with freestone dressings. Steeply pitched slate roof with stone
coping and finials to gable ends. E-shaped on plan with parallel ranges at the rear.
Single storey centre with two storeyed projecting porch with shaped gable, four
centred arch doorway with carved spandrels, hood mould and ribbon band above.
To left and right of porch tall rectangular windows in shaped gables. Flanking
wings: right hand school room, one storey and attic with shouldered arch doorway
facing the forecourt. Left hand master's house, two storeys, with four centred arch
porch in the angle and stone oriel in the gable end to road. Left hand (west)
return, gable end of hall has pair of perpendicular windows and cusped rose window
above.
At the rear (north) a long parallel range, two storeys, stone mullion transom
windows, two centred arch doorways and buttresses with set offs.
Further ranges to the north have been demolished.
Reference: Illustrated London News 6 July 1861 page 4.


Listing NGR: ST3092404485

 

[Nemesis]

Picture here:


http://www.hoopersfarm.co.uk/Chardstock-Photos.htm



[Open Image] [Hosted by PhotoGalaxy.com]

 

[Moo]

You may be interested in the saga of another abandoned school in South Norfolk. If you google "Pulham Pennoyers School" you'll find lots of information.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Tut Tut, Moo ----- naughty naughty!

xxxxx J xxxxx

 

[Nemesis]

It's not abandoned, is it? It was featured on Restoration in 2006, and has received a Lottery grant. Unlike the one above, which is another victim of the government's schools renewal programme.

A recent listing:

http://www.victorian-society.org.uk/news/15260/national_recognition_for_one_of_londons_oldest_board_schools.html

 

[Moo]

It's not abandoned now, but it spent many, many years in neglected limbo while people fought for its survival. What we see now is the outcome, and I thought it might cheer Vicky and her fellow campaigners up.

 

[DaveBrigg]

St Andrews school looks like a beautiful building and worthy of preservation, but may not now be suitable for a school. The school in which I work is a listed building of historic interest, but if it wasn't for the fact that it has always been a school, no-one would now recommend its design as being appropriate.
Many old schools have poor parking for staff and visitors. Outside of cities, public transport is rarely an option, leaving a choice between parking down the street and annoying the neighbours (not to mention the congestion at school-run time), or using part of the playground for parking, with the risks that involves.
Older buildings also tend to require more maintenance. It is a lucky school that has a caretaker with the skills and knowledge to plan and monitor a maintenance schedule, or the funds to allow this to happen. Often, those making the decisions will be senior teachers with no training or experience, which is why so many schools are in a poor state of repair.
Some of the old schools that I have visited have also had problems with heating; children these days come from centrally heated homes, and the school is faced with a large fuel bill for heating rooms with single glazing and 12ft ceilings, or cold children and complaining parents.
Some schools were designed for far fewer pupils than now use them, and have narrow corridors, classrooms designed for 20 holding classes of 30, rooms on different levels, no sports facilities etc. Ours was once two separate schools, and so has two main buildings about 500 metres apart. Great for fresh air in the summer, but not so much fun for pupils who have to walk between sites in a downpour.
One of our feeder primary schools was demolished last year. It was not listed, and had been added to and patched up so many times that it was a bit of an eyesore. Nevertheless it had been part of the community for generations, and there were a few tears when the bulldozers moved in. The replacement however is wonderful. The rooms are warm and spacious, and fully wired for IT without miles of trunking tacked to the walls. The playground is separate from the staff car park, and the whole site has increased security. It is fully accessible to disabled pupils, and the layout was partly planned by the staff, so that there is a central hub from which all rooms can be easily reached. There are small rooms for music rehearsal or quiet reading, and more space for outdoor activities. The school is now on the outskirts of town, meaning more car journeys by parents, but there is less congestion from cars trying to go up and down a terraced street with parking on both sides, and less risk of a child being knocked down crossing the road.
I know that many of the 'problems' mentioned above can be lessened without the need for demolition, but the focus of a school is education, and from a purely selfish point of view I'm not sure that I would want my child to be taught in a school where more of the budget and time was spent on caring for the building than caring for the pupils in it. As I said, the school in Chardstock looks like a beautiful building, full of character, and worthy of keeping, but perhaps for an alternative purpose. Our place is not due for a rebuild for another seven years (The listed parts will no doubt be kept) and I can't wait.

 

[Nemesis]

On the other hand, there are many older schools which are far better built than new, and can adapt, as they have done over time, to the latest fads and fancies of teaching, or indeed teaching can be adapted, and rather more roomy, and I can point to many schools which were built in the fairly recent past which have since been demolished. CLASP buildings started to fall apart from about week one. The OH visits schools on a regular basis still, and is quite critical of many of the new designs being built (as indeed is CABE) as lacking in practicality, noisy, and short on basics like cupboard space. OK nice now while new, but will soon grow shabby and the difficulties of maintenance will start to show. There's one classic where, in order to eliminate steps, the path slopes towards the entrance doors. It doesn't take much rain to cause a flood.

Another problem is that many an older school which is still perfectly sound has to be demolished as the new school is built in the grounds as there isn't any where else, and the space is needed for playground, car parking, access etc.

New isn't always better, its just it's government policy and vast pots of cash are now available. Some of it can be spent of refurb, but so many handsome, and eminently re-usable, buildings which are part of the history of a community are simply being bulldozed.

It's odd though - those prep and private and public schools which are situated in old buildings still seem to manage to educate students, without considering mass demolition.

 

[shelli]

Mine certainly did



1583 I think it was - okay so the upstairs rooms were a bit rickety and the downstairs parquet uneven - but the stone steps were worn with the footsteps of 100s of years worth of pupils and the oak panelling in the dining hall had graffiti in latin - in that type of building you "feel" education all around you - you have a sense of place and purpose - much better than a souless prefab box

but thats just my opinion - perhaps others don't need that depth of experience

Shelli

 

[MdB]

I spent a lot of my school life in a building something like this, though this one looks in better nick than the one I was in. Some things are better gone.

 

[Nemesis]

Oh, I dunno, prefabs were at times nice peaceful places to be.

 

[DaveBrigg]

It's odd though - those prep and private and public schools which are situated in old buildings still seem to manage to educate students, without considering mass demolition.

There is a school that fits the description above, just across the road from where I used to work. They have several old buildings, including four at grade II and one grade II*, all in a good state of repair and in use.
However, somewhere on the 400 acre site they also had the space to build brand new technology block and mulimedia facilities. The fact that they still manage to educate students in Victorian buildings may also be helped by the Boarding fees of £8,975.00 per term, Day Fee (in boarding houses) Boarder £7,625.00 per term and Day Fee £6,725.00 per term, not to mention the £100 fee to register a child, and £1,000 entrance fee. (extras, such as payment to enter exams, learning an instrument, £31 a term to belong to the Old Boys society, or staying in the sixth form are billed separately).
Our annual department budget for teaching resources for 'A' level is £300. We would have possibly received more if the large 17th C chimney stack had not needed specialist treatment to stop it falling through the library roof, but would receive less if a company was brought in to clean out the grass and small shrubs which appear in some of the gutters, or mend the 1960's flat roof of the drama hall, which leaks. Having such disparities is, as you say, 'odd'.

okay so the upstairs rooms were a bit rickety and the downstairs parquet uneven - but the stone steps were worn with the footsteps of 100s of years worth of pupils and the oak panelling in the dining hall had graffiti in latin - in that type of building you "feel" education all around you - you have a sense of place and purpose - much better than a souless prefab box

but thats just my opinion - perhaps others don't need that depth of experience

Rickety rooms, uneven floors and worn steps are fine until Ofsted come round and fail the school on grounds of safety, or a child has an accident (and then the parent sues because the school did nothing to prevent an avoidable injury) Only state schools are inspected by Ofsted, so the private sector schools with old and dangerous buildings are not under the same pressure to improve.
The 'souless prefab boxes' are amongst the first schools to be rebuilt, since many were only designed and built as stop-gaps, and have exceeded their shelf-life. The new primary schools which I have seen seem to be solidly built, and are far better than the one I went to.
Unfortunately, most children in this country's parents cannot afford to give their children the depth of experience that comes from wood panelling and uneven floors. Fortunately, when preparing children to face life in the 21st century, better trained teachers and decent resources appropriate to pupils' needs may partly compensate for this.

 

[Nemesis]

Actually, and I do have a small amount of insight into this, teachers are teachers, in whichever sector they teach. There are excellent and mediocre in both sectors, surely?

Old does not always equal dangerous, and I would suggest those paying large fees are equally as capable of sueing if there is deemed to be an avoidable accident.

Sadly, many fine buildings are going. They are capable of continuing use, but new equals better in some eyes - not always in mine.

 

[shelli]

Unfortunately, most children in this country's parents cannot afford to give their children the depth of experience that comes from wood panelling and uneven floors. Fortunately, when preparing children to face life in the 21st century, better trained teachers and decent resources appropriate to pupils' needs may partly compensate for this.

You're absolutely right Dave and I cant believe the allocation of funds in education is so wrong.

Just to clarify - it wasn't the wood panelling and uneven floors per se that filled me with such warm feelings - it was the sense of history about the place - it's wonderful atmosphere - it felt like an immense privilege to be where so many others had gone before - (it actually was huge privilege for me - scholarship pupil - assisted place etc) - it had an importance and a sense of ceremony - that wasn't there in the 1970's build comp I went to before - even though it was a very good school.

I think that the historic school buildings we have should be maintained and used where possible - if we hope to impart a sense of importance about education it needs to look important to students. it needs to uplift and inspire them. Good architecture can help to do that, both for pupils and teachers.

 

[vicky whitworth]

Dave, you're right. These are all the arguments that the govenors put forward for moving out of the old building and I know that these things are a matter of opinion. However I would never choose to send my child to a new, warehouse style building complete with central heating and indoor loos at the expenses of destroying a purpose-built school that could have been refurbished with a bit of creativity. The building isn't suitable for residential (although I suspect something will be cobbled together with strange room arrangements) and the old building could have been sympathetically modernised and used to educate children about the importance of conserving old buildings and using the energy locked up in it. A recent survey of the kids has found that the most important thing in their new school is a wildlife area but to build the school a badgers' set has been destroyed (and as a result a displaced badger has been killed on the road outside the new building), and hedgerows with doormice and glow worms have been ripped out. So now they plan to create a wildlife area! With, you've guessed it, plenty of hard landscaping. In the next village (All Saints) have used a fantastic new structure full of SPAB principles to keep the old school building in use. My kids would go there.