Government's proposed energy gradings

[ilikecobwebs]

I'm normally fairly good at finding stuff online, but since the announcement of grading houses (according to their energy efficiency) was made, I havent been able to find out much more.
I understand these "gradings" are supposed to eventually form part of a seller's pack. It worries me that this will be yet another avenue for the plastic-doors-and-windows brigade, plus all other related insulation companies. I've already had several phonecalls from cavity-wall insulation businesses (dont you just love telling them you've got a solid-stone house?), and upvc unsolicited calls and leaflets have been on the increase.
We in our house have no intention of ripping out our 120+ year old windows, so don't worry there.....it's just that I'd like to get more of a grip on understanding what the government are truly angling at.
Apologies if the subject has already been discussed; I did a quick search but didnt find anything.

 

[Johneds]

After June 2007 you will have to have an energy survey carried out on your home when you sell it. The survey will rate your house from A to G and you will be given a certficate which looks a bit like the one on a new fridge or washing machine. The report will also give information about what measures you could take to improve the energy efficiency of your new home and what the payback period is for these measures.

The good news is that uPVC windows are likely to fall in popularity because the payback period is usually in excess of 100 years. Simple measures like draught proofing have an excellent payback so are likely to become more popular.

For a bit more info try Elmhurst Energy and look up RDSAP. (which stands for reduced data SAP)

http://www.elmhurstenergy.co.uk/article/nid/317

 

[ilikecobwebs]

Thank you Johneds, I will have a read of that. We arent planning to sell up at the moment, but we are going to be reviewing our loft insulation and some more minor areas at some time in the near future. I do hope you are right about the pvc.

 

[Nemesis]

Sadly. I think there will be few homes left without uPVC before too long!

Everywhere I go I see they are being installed - entire streets, whole villages - very few are now retaining their historic timber. Even listed buildings!

 

[ilikecobwebs]

Listed buildings with upvc windows doesnt sound right. Anyone told English Heritage? Lets be truthful, its getting a bit desperate, isnt it? As well as being an EH member, I also belong to a small charity that owns a Grade2* listed building, and I'm absolutely certain they wouldnt get away with bunging in plastic stuff, during its long-term renovation.

These new energy-gradings are what make me fear the continuing spread of plastic-rash; I do hope it doesnt happen, but you are right, the damn stuff is getting everywhere. My neighbours have just ripped out all but two of their cottage windows, and put in plastic. It looks god-awful, and makes the other three of us properties look idiotic. I asked them why they'd done it, and....you guessed....."they dont need maintenance", I was told.
These pvc companies have got the whole country over a barrel, with their marketing. I believe the only way now, to protect many old homes in villages, is to apply for conservation status. It has its drawbacks, of course, and no guarantees, but it really does crack me up to see our lovely old houses with Lego fittings....especially in their most prominent areas; the frontages.

 

[rog and gina]

we recently had to repaint one of our timber windows, it only took a day to undercoat, paint, and dry, by bed time the window was all done and ready to close.

A couple of days later a friend said "oh, its a shame you can't have upvc ones, they're so much easier!" :roll:

I just laughed, and said it had taken me one day, and it'll probably last another 4 - 5 years (very exposed site) and it only cost a couple of pounds!
How much will they have to spend in 5-10 years when their frames have dis-coloured, developed draughts and need to be replaced, afew thousand maybe? If I have to paint two or three windows a year for life, I'm sure it'll never cost that much!

 

[ilikecobwebs]

Well said; it's people's laziness today that spawns these problems. Wont be much longer before a young adult asks what a paintbrush is.
And there's also a hitherto undiscovered pleasure in doing that little bit of work to keep your home healthy and happy.

 

[Nemesis]

English Heritage has no say at all with regard to alterations to listed buildings below II* and I grading.

It's up to local authorities to take action. Some, like mine, are rubbish really. They are totally understaffed where conservation is concerned, and enforcement action is down to the will of elected councillors, many of whom are clueless.

Conservation Area status isn't easy to get, the local authority has to instigate that, and that doesn't prevent uPVC either necessarily.

I am sure uPVC requires no maintenance, That's cos what they need is throwing away and totally replacing. In the not too distant future.

 

[biffvernon]

These new energy-gradings are what make me fear the continuing spread of plastic-rash.

Don't blame the efforts to improve energy saving for the switch from wood to PVC.
The double glazed windows I make use exactly the same spec insulated glass units as the plastic ones but because I use oak, which is much stronger, I use thinner profiles. More heat, per unit area, escapes through the frame than through the igu, so thinner frame profiles mean the wooden windows have a lower overall U-value than plastic ones. Embodied unergy is much lower. Lifetime is much longer. On energy efficiency grounds wood is better than plastic.
If we don't sort out our energ profligacy pretty damn guick caring for old buildings will become a low priority in the struggle for survival.

 

[Nemesis]

I think much of the proflicacy lies in ripping out existing windows and replacing them.

 

[Penners]

I think much of the proflicacy lies in ripping out existing windows and replacing them.

Surely that depends on (a) the condition of the existing windows, and (b) what you replace them with.

uPVC bad. BVO* good.




* Biff Vernon Oak

 

[Nemesis]

It does - but many I see round here look perfectly good historic sash winows. The hype of the uPVC lobby has worked.

 

[Penners]

After June 2007 you will have to have an energy survey carried out on your home when you sell it. The survey will rate your house from A to G and you will be given a certficate which looks a bit like the one on a new fridge or washing machine.

John - will the survey actually include empirical information on that specific building (based on thermal leakage tests) or will it simply categorise the building according to its type of construction?

For example, my Suffolk timberframe house has generous insulation between the inner and outer skins. Another similarly constructed house might have no insulation at all. Short of drilling inspection holes in the wall, or testing thermal leakage through the walls, how will the inspector know?

 

[Penners]

It does - but many I see round here look perfectly good historic sash winows. The hype of the uPVC lobby has worked.

No argument there.

 

[Silas]

Biff

My cottage has a modern extention on the back and a conservatory, both are about 15 years old, they have awful white plastic windows, I am, to put it politely, not a fan of them, the frames are far too chunky and the fake georgian bar's stuck on the inside of the DG units look naff, the previous owners were really proad of them!

I am stuck with them until funds permit. However though these windows are an environmental crime to manufacture wont this also be the case if they are ripped out and put in the landfill.

I am loathed to consider replacement until these windows start to fail and so far annoyingly they are as white and functional as the day they were installed 15yrs ago.

Clearly it would be better if we could go back in time and take out the fool who invented placcie windows, but also clearly if everyone that has fitted them ripped them out in favour of wooden frames the resultant landfill would not be eco friendly. There are apparently companies that recycle old UPVC windows, but how much energy and carbon etc is involved in that I wonder? Factories to make them and factories to recycle them, would they then be claimed to be green, and sold as eco friendly UPVC?

As yoda may say "between rock and a hard place are we, rod for own backs make us"

 

[Nemesis]

I have beside me a leaflet from a uPVC window company. It's all about telling me how 'green' their products are, how 'environmentally friendly'. Hmmm...

It says less energy is used than in the maufacture of wood or aluminium.

There area whole heap of other claims which I think wouldn't withstand close scrutiny.

It also is encouraging us all to 'trade in our old windows for recycling'. You get a discount that way.

Well, they are a fashion item now, dahling, if you haven't the latest model you are a social pariah...


http://www.finessegroup.co.uk

 

[Penners]

It says less energy is used than in the maufacture of wood or aluminium.

There area whole heap of other claims which I think wouldn't withstand close scrutiny.

That's blatant misrepresentation. I hope you'll be passing the leaflet on to your local TSO.

 

[Johneds]

John - will the survey actually include empirical information on that specific building (based on thermal leakage tests) or will it simply categorise the building according to its type of construction?

For example, my Suffolk timberframe house has generous insulation between the inner and outer skins. Another similarly constructed house might have no insulation at all. Short of drilling inspection holes in the wall, or testing thermal leakage through the walls, how will the inspector know?

You've spotted the flaw in the cunning plan there David. The software works on rounded building types and not specific constructions. It has been recognised that it is far from perfect but there are so many variables it is impossible to allow for them all.

I also have some concern about who will be carrying out these assessments. I gather that most will be done by the Home Inspectors that are now basically redundant due to the U-turn on compulsory home condition reports. Now, some of those people have certain experience and will no doubt do a good job but a lot have come in from outside the industry and appear to have no prior experience at all. (burger flippers and white van men somebody has called them but I think that's a bit unkind personally)

So, as Nat King Cole said, 'there may be trouble ahead'. (that was Nat wasn't it?)

 

[middi]

Quite right Johneds, lots of trouble ahead.

Ironically it will solve both heating conservation problems and get rid of plastic D G. Global warming.

 

[Penners]

So, as Nat King Cole said, 'there may be trouble ahead'. (that was Nat wasn't it?)

Yup - a very appropriate reference to your topic: "Let's face the music...!"

Thanks for that explanation.