Failed paint on Victorian barge boards - advice on best product please!

[Simon]

We've moved into a large Victorian property with huge black-painted bargeboads on the front apex, which were in very poor condition. We stripped them back to bare wood and filled them with two-part wood filler and they looked really good before we started applying any paint. We wanted to find a product that would really last a long time, as the cost of the scaffolding for a large property is so high. We were mindful that the paint needed to adhere well to both the wood and the filled areas, and to cope with the very sunny south-facing orientation, on top of our seaside location, which gets every type of weather.

We were thinking of Bedec Barn Paint (black), which matches the colour scheme in the conservation area, but we hoped it would last longer (and be more resistant to cracking and flaking) than conventional oil paint (e.g. Dulux Weathershield). We were persuaded to buy an oil-based cousin of Bedec, called Solignum architectural paint. It was lovely to use and does not need priming, and the finish was amazing. However, after just one winter it has completely cracked and is falling off. Cheaper conventional oil paint would have taken years to get that bad. Something has just not worked. Having already paid for the first round of preparation and painting, I can't face trying to get back to the wood again, and am considering getting new bargeboards and am urgently seeking advice on the following please:

1. does anybody have an idea what might have gone wrong?
2. if I do get new wood, what is the best product for painting, given all the above?

I have heard pros and cons about various paints, including linseed oil paint, bedec barn, osmo black wood stain. I am also considering changing to white as my neighbours have done. It is not the right 'look' for the style of the house, but I expect they did it because the black paint up there is in the hot sun all day.

Any advice gratefully received,

Simon

 

[Feltwell]

If you have a search on Bedec MSP on here, it is well regarded by many, including me. It's worth a call to Bedec - I think their Barn paint is a cheaper product more intended for rough sawn timber, MSP is pricier but is for smooth planed. There's no need to replace the bargeboards, just strip back with a heat gun or sand it back a bit if it's still well adhered. That will be much cheaper & easier.

Access - for a brief period you may find it cheaper & easier to hire a cherry picker for a week than to have it scaffolded. Cheapest of all is hire a scaffold tower, but you've got to have good access below and you've got the work of putting it up, moving it and taking it down.

Colour - it's true that black on a south facing exposed elevation is going to have a hard time - a paler colour, doesn't have to be white, may last longer. Others on here have faced a similar black paint dilemma and are more qualified than I to offer experience.

Filler - the only one I rate for external exposed use is 2-pack epoxy after an epoxy primer, I've never found anything else that lasts. See this old thread of mine.

https://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/threads/2-part-epoxy-wood-repair-systems.16977/

The green finish on the end of that thread is Bedec MSP in satin, by the way.

 

[Cubist]

A big part of the problem at the root of cracking paint finishes is that it is not flexible enough to accommodate the daily expansion and contractions of the underlying material - whatever that may be. Dark colours suffer greater damage as these allow more of the suns heat to be absorbed thus accelerating the contraction process. Using white or light colours will help, as Feltwell says, but the problem will still arise. Personally, I've never found a paint that copes in all circumstances so I'll leave any recommendations to others and limit my input to - sorry, but you may just have to accept getting up those ladders on a fairly regular basis in the future.

 

[malcolm]

I'm a big fan of linseed paint for exterior woodwork. The original finish would have been linseed putty as a filler then linseed paint for a coating. It's guaranteed never to crack or peel because it's an oil not a paint, and it doesn't need much prep when you want to paint over. Drying times are very long and it goes matt quickly and tends to dust over time. Black is probably the best colour. Worth a forum search as others haven't had as much luck as me and suggest it can wear off in exposed locations.

 

[mardinor]

Hard to tell from the photos, but the thickness of the flakes suggests it may be the filler that has failed? If so, that is what I would expect. I’m afraid the usual 2 part ‘car body’ type filler is great indoors but won’t last more than a year or two outdoors. We made the same mistake on our windows. I echo Feltwell’s advice - there is no alternative to using modern flexible wood filler (repaircare). It’s eye watering expensive but flexes. I’d also try to avoid filling wherever possible and be more aggressive on the sanding back. Bedec is a top quality finish, as is Solignum and (my favourite) Jotun Demidekk. Don’t replace the wood. No matter how bad the old stuff it , it will be infinitely better than new. We don’t grow it slowly enough to last these days, unless you go with Douglas Fir, larch, hardwood or acoya (all very expensive). Honestly, just resand back to stable wood, fill the bare minimum, then coat with Bedec or Jotun (must use bare wood primer in their system). If that still fails, you’ll need to switch to white.

 

[TudorCottage]

I used Bedec Barn Paint in black satin on my facia and soffits at the beginning of last summer. Not long ago I agree but last summer was quite hot. It has so far shown no signs of wear and after a quick wipe over it still looks fresh.

We have a thatched roof with a large overhang so I guess that also helps. But I’ll use it again when the time comes.

It’s quite gloopy so I would recommend a small amount of watering down on the first coat but just well stirred neat paint for additional coats.

 

[fernicarry]

I filled my rotten storm doors using the Ronseal yellow stuff. It was really an emergency cosmetic repair as they were absolutely falling apart and looked quite insecure.

What has become apparent is that the wood moves a lot particularly with changing humidity but the filler doesn't move at all. What was a perfectly flat surface is now all steps and stairs. Its over painted with Bedec MSP which so far is holding but I think its a big ask in the longer term.

Once time allows (haha!) I'll redo by routing out the rotted area to a uniform depth and gluing in a well fitting piece of new timber of same species.

For roof line I don't think I'd worry too much about imperfections in the surface. Use a matt finish to make less obvious.

Have to admit I'm finding MSP struggles in areas that see a lot of water like window sills. I'm thinking I need to look at alternatives for those areas. The front of this house does get absolutely drenched as we're about the first thing the weather hits after Newfoundland.

 

[Drayton]

Have to admit I'm finding MSP struggles in areas that see a lot of water like window sills. I'm thinking I need to look at alternatives for those areas. The front of this house does get absolutely drenched as we're about the first thing the weather hits after Newfoundland.

Thanks for that information, I'm west coast and in one direction the front of the house is the first thing that gets hit after Iceland, albeit I'm further south and in a different country. I was wondering how MSP would hold up to being wet as well as being salt and sand blasted periodiclally.

A shame but hardly surprising, something to cope well here would be over-specced for most applications.

 

[Simon]

Dear all. I am overwhelmed and grateful for all the responses. Thank you so much, to those who have responded. I am now of course still a little confused by the different ideas. I am now reconsidering replacing the barge boards in view of Feltwell's reponse. And if I don't, I'll do the preparation and drying out time etc. advised, followed (inevitably due to the rotten holes) by filling, but this time with a flexible wood filler (repaircare?) as suggested by Mardinor. Possibly even using a linseed oil putty/filler, as suggested by Malcolm.

Then there's still the paint dilemma. Many seem to swear by Bedec MSP. Mardinor seems to like Solignum, which is what has failed above. Or Demi Dekk even better he says, but if Demi Dekk is a bit like Solignum, then it will be oil-based and form a waterproof layer over the timber. Not sure that's the answer here as the wood is old and porous, after 130 years, and hard to paint the backs due to access, so they will continue to expand and contract with heat/cold, wet/dry. I have read that a "latex based" paint is good in such circumstances as it bonds with the moisture in the wood. But I have not found any commercially available exerior latex-based paints. I am thinking a water based paint might be more porous and therefore be more able to allow trapped moisture to evaporate and that will help the paint last. And I am still considering linseed oil paint as Malcolm has just given it a seal of approval, despite knowing that mine are inaccessibly high and in a very sunny south facing spot by the sea. I guess I could always re-coat them with linseed oil using a cherry picker every few years as Feltwell suggests.

I will read and digest the above advice again. And if this reply prompts any further thoughts, I am always interested.

Thank you again to Feltwell, Malcolm (whose house is a bit like mine in style), Cubist, Maridor, Drayton, Fernicarry and Tudor Cottage.

Simon

 

[Feltwell]

My experience of linseed paint was:-

• You really need to get back to bare wood. Nothing wrong with stripping existing wood to do this, it's what I did, with a heat gun and scrapers.
• Applying hot raw linseed oil as a primer was fine if a little messy - I used a camping stove and an old saucepan up on the scaffolding. Smells lovely and my hands had never been so soft!
• You apply the oil and the paint very, very thinly. If you think you're applying it far too thinly you're doing it just right.
• Apply it too thick, especially in any crevice detail, and the top dries leaving the lower layer wet then as it all dries over many, many weeks it goes wrinklier than Nora Batty's stockings
• It takes forever to dry. If it rains you're stuffed, rub it down and start again. I have experience! You need many coats.
• This might give you a problem with hire time for a cherry picker. With MSP you'd need 3 coats only and you only need to leave it for about 4 hours between coats
• Do not use the "luslack and chalk" filler that some linseed outlets recommend - it's useless, failed within 2 years for me.
• I didn't find that linseed putty lasted well as a filler either. I now use (& swear by) Timbabuild primer and EHB60 epoxy. Other epoxies are available, just make sure it's a system where you are mixing up a 2-part epoxy penetrating primer to paint on, then mixing up a 2-part epoxy filler to go on top (which may come out of 1 dual-section tube). Repaircare do a similar product I believe (Dry-flex 2in1? I think - not sure if it has the penetrating primer stage though). Epoxy seems to stick to and flex with the timber better than anything else. I haven't tried linseed paint over it but I think it would be OK, if not a conventional oil primer would provide a bond to then go over with linseed to finish.
• I found that linseed paint lasted well on vertical surfaces, but on horizontal surfaces it weathered through to bare wood in about 4 years. It also went really dirty looking, and could not be cleaned - but I used a pale buttermilk colour paint. For those reasons, I abandoned it and have found MSP to be much much easier and quicker to apply and more durable. But.......
• I'm nowhere near the coast, couldn't get much further away in fact! Though I am relatively high up and exposed. If you're just using black and going onto vertical surfaces only (or the only horizontals are the bottom of the barge boards) you could well be OK with linseed. Note that it will go matt over time.

Good luck with whatever you choose!

 

[Feltwell]

I knew I remembered that someone had used black linseed vertically - it was 88v8 on this old thread. Why do I remember the most random details, yet other much more major things fade into a comfortable blur????

https://www.periodproperty.co.uk/fo...atin-bedec-msp-differences.17569/#post-235961

 

[Cubist]

I knew I remembered that someone had used black linseed vertically - it was 88v8 on this old thread. Why do I remember the most random details, yet other much more major things fade into a comfortable blur????

https://www.periodproperty.co.uk/fo...atin-bedec-msp-differences.17569/#post-235961

In vino oblivion perhaps?

 

[Feltwell]

In vino oblivion perhaps?

No, I barely drink! I'm not teetotal but I could honestly give up booze tomorrow with no hesitation. Just old age I think - the Homer Simpson stage, everytime something new comes along something old has to be pushed out to make room!

 

[malcolm]

Ought to add the black linseed I applied on bare wood in 2015 is leeching pigment onto my limewash. I plan to go up there and add a coat of boiled linseed in the height of summer (linseed paint season is late July).

I don't regret the choice. The paint that was on there before the linseed was the normal gloss paint with wood rotting in the joints beneath the cracking waterproof coating.

Linseed putty might be a bit iffy. Wood expands and contracts with the seasons and soft putty tends to be squeezed out of gaps as the wood expands. However it is breathable so water that gets in seems to be able to get out again so the wood stays good.

 

[mardinor]

Here's a few clarifications that may help you decide. Jotun Demidekk is water-based and micro-porous, like MSP. It has a 12 year quoted lifespan for what that's worth - best on the market. I haven't personally used MSP or Solignum - my comments were based on them both having great reputations among painters as being class-leading too.

My own experience is of Demidekk and of linseed oil paint, both in real world 10+ year application.

The linseed oil paint MUST be applied to wood sanded fully to bare so it soaks in, to get the benefit. I did this to a garden bench 10 years ago and found it lasted OK on vertical surfaces, but grew black mould on horizontal surfaces (both OK on your application), but that putty filler failed within a year. So I'd conclude it could work for you, but only if you are prepared to sand fully back again, can tolerate very long dry times, and don't have much filling needed (as it won't work as well over that non-porous surface).

I have used Demidekk on bargeboards and windows, though in white. It comes as a system so need its proprietary visir primer first on any bare patches, or not required over sound paint. I found that south-facing areas required overpainting after 10 years (but many are still acceptable 18 years later), whereas north facing is still OK after 18 years except for horizontal surfaces (window cills). I have also used it in black on a south-facing shed 12 years ago (similar application to you). It started to degrade after about 7 years but I have left it alone and it's a bit flaky but OK after 12 years (so your bargeboards would look fine from ground level).

Honestly, if you have original victorian wood it doesn't actually need any paint for protection. It will denature but not rot as long as it gets air circulating. Which is why a paint layer is more harm than good from a pure protection point of view, as it fails and traps moisture. I have an area on my roof I can't access that hasn't been touched for over 70 years and although flaky it looks fine from ground level. So you're only really painting it for cosmetic reasons. So it comes down to how visible the area is and your tolerance for imperfection!

If it were me I'd just go for a modern water-based paint (either Demidekk or MSP, but not Dulux or anything you'd find in B&Q) together with good preparation and gap-filling only where essential, using a specialist epoxy (repaircare or timbabuild).

 

[Feltwell]

Linseed putty might be a bit iffy. Wood expands and contracts with the seasons and soft putty tends to be squeezed out of gaps as the wood expands. However it is breathable so water that gets in seems to be able to get out again so the wood stays good.

My objection to linseed putty is actually that eventually - takes a good while - it goes rock hard and does not flex at all with the wood, so it soon parts company with it. The epoxy seems to stay just very slightly rubbery and flexible permanently, but you can still rub it down (though it's hard work).

 

[Simon]

Thanks for all the new messages.

In view of the responses, I think I should add that we are in a convervation area, so the only acceptable colours are black or white for the barge boards. The neighbours got away with white. The house is black and white mock tudor, and everywhere else the woodwork (and decorative half-timbering) are black, and the other huge gable on the north-facing side of our house (where the paint has not failed) .. are all black. The neighbours went white for all their roof timber, fascias etc. I can't afford to change things. I'm loathe to choose anyting but black for my front gable's barge boards, as they'd not match the rest.

I too am an enthusiast for preserving original victorian features, and timber whereever possible (mostly douglas fir). I did this with all the lovely Victorian sashes, all of which were broken and nailed shut when I bought the house. But as for the front gables, I fear they really were decayed. I recall when they were first stripped. I was impressed that my decorators had been thorough enough to get all the layers of paint off and got it back to the bare wood. In most places, save for lots of fascias, and some rafter ends, which were totally rotted, the stripped wood was hard and beautiful to behold. Not here. It was holed, and pitted, and the surface had rotten away, and what was left was sinewy and soft to the touch. They were stripped during our long drought last summer. So while they might have still had some trapped moisture, I suspect that the real problem was they were just too far gone.

I have just had a very fair price from my able carpenter to renew the whole thing with a good redwood pine from a quality timber merchant. I am now in favour of replacement. That will also obviate any concerns about filling. I am leaning towards linseed oil paint, provided I can get a few coats on it before it even goes up. How long do people think it will take to dry, as I do have a time limit? Could keep the painted sections in my workshop out of any rain. Failing which maybe Jotun Demidekk or MSP.

I think I need to sleep on this and look at the weather forecasts.

 

[Feltwell]

I’d allow 24 hours for a coat of linseed to dry, if it’s dry and reasonably warm. Cold and/or wet and it can be longer

 

[Me!]

Could keep the painted sections in my workshop out of any rain.

The Ultra Violet in direct sunlight is one of the major things that make linseed paint dry, so in the shade of your workshop the drying times are likely to be extended.
Technically, linseed paint doesn't really "dry" at all, it hardens chemically by oxidation and this oxidation is accelerated by UV light.

 

[Simon]

Thanks for the two quick new resposes (Me! and Feltwell). I'm sure what you write is correct: best to dry linseed oil in the ultra violet light, in warm dry weather. Unfortunately I have to do it right now, in the depths of winter when it's very cold and you cannot rule out the occasional shower (even when the weather forecast says otherwise). So I'm trying to make the best of a bad situation. The one thing I want to avoid is Feltwell's ..."If it rains you're stuffed, rub it down and start again" (hence the idea of doing a couple of coats indoors first).

On the plus side:
1. unusually given the recent deluges, we have a good forecast for the next week or so (no rain, some sunny spells, even if rather cold).
2. no horizontal surfaces which I gather work less well with linseed oil paint
3. no risk of pigment bleed into my white render as the barge boards are well away from the font of the house.

I wonder if I could get away with a new coat every 24 hours if I stick my boads in the light and just bring them indoors if it starts to rain? By the way I have really taken Feltwell's advice to heart about lots of thin coats! I am thinkin of Brouns and Co, who seem to be the main purveyors of Linseed Oil Exterior Paint.

Thanks again.

Simon