F&B's Estate Emulsion - any comments, good or bad?

[jocelyn plummer]

I agree with Lime and many other comments in this thread F & B aint what it used to be, good colour range ,but poor finish. The Estate emulsion is marginally better in its finish than the modern emulsion, that is, in my view, awful.

Give me my favourite R of J or Francescas soft chalky Emulsions any day,

With the other shhh commercial paint, well you get what you pay for, it needs redoing every 6 months,

 

[Wren]

Have used Farrow and Ball paints with no problems. And their colours are the ticket, extremely well thought out. What's not to like.

 

[robgil]

this is interesting guys , it was written in 1870 something , about half way down , house painting.

http://chestofbooks.com/reference/Encyclopedia-Of-Practical-Receipts-And-Processes/index.html

no mention of farrow and ball.

 

[rogerh]

Any colour can be easily copied if you have a sample.

My local paint shop has a notice saying they won't copy F&B colours as they're copyright.

 

[robgil]

how can you copy write a colour?

 

[Tom]

how can you copy write a colour?

+1

I can understand that they 'may' have a copyright on the name they give each colour but to copyright the colour itself?? And even copyrighting the name would be dubious, wouldn't it?

 

[Lime]

Any colour can be easily copied if you have a sample.

My local paint shop has a notice saying they won't copy F&B colours as they're copyright.

Who is to know what the colour is called unless you tell them?
Say you made it up yourself if you have to.

 

[Pford75]

You can protect a color, as in Coke Red, Barbie Pink or John Deere Green,
without any registration of copyright, trademark or patent, through the
doctrine of "trade dress," which has been around for a long time. In 1995
the Supreme Court case of Qualitex Co. v. Jacobson Products Co. ruled that
a single color can be trademarked, adding the additional protections
provided by registration.

http://www.mobilitysite.com/2008/04/can-you-copyright-a-color-t-mobile-magenta/
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/03/29/business/high-court-ruling-upholds-trademarking-of-a-color.html

Seems that it is possible to trademark (if not copyright) a colour.

 

[Pford75]

The gloss is hitting the fan as sales take off, writes Michael Becket

Tiny paintmaker Farrow & Ball, based in Wimborne, Dorset, has squared up for a battle with ICI over an alleged breach of copyright involving paints used to decorate the home of Prince Charles and National Trust properties.

The company has started legal action against one of the world's biggest paint manufacturers through its Glidden subsidiary over what it claims to be a unique blend of colours and history, the product of 20 years of research.

Exhaustive investigations, analysing the composition of paints used down the centuries in historic houses, resulted in Farrow & Ball bringing out the National Trust range in 1991. Sales have taken off and have shown growth of up to 40pc a year. Turnover from the range is now running at £20m with the National Trust collecting £100,000 from its share of sales.

Six months ago directors were alarmed to find ICI marketing the "Dulux equivalent colours to Farrow & Ball 'colour card' colours" labelled FB zero to FB 95. The ICI range also included "the Dulux equivalent colours to Farrow & Ball 'garden paint."'

Director Martin Ephson protested and wrote to ICI declaring he was "astounded and outraged." He maintained that the Dulux equivalents were poor copies of the Farrow & Ball colours.

Now the two sides are engaged in a tug-of-war over an issue that observers say boils down to whether colours can be the subject of copyright. ICI says it is trying to resolve the issue and insists: "We would not attempt to pass off our paints as those of anyone else."

Farrow is not seeking damages or costs and its action centres on trying to get ICI to admit to a breach of copyright, passing off and infringement of database. The infringement issue has been highlighted in other cases involving reproduction of information and could affect the way ICI produces its colour base and labels its paints.

ICI sources say there have been difficulties in trying to pin down the Farrow complaints but director Tom Helme says: "We are just asking them to stop stealing our database and infringing our copyright."

The Glidden arm has had more success in coping with bigger leaded paint compensation cases in America where it has been dismissed from compensation cases but Farrow is being persistent in pushing its legal action. Mr Helme feels ICI is guilty of double standards in its arguments.

He has drawn on evidence presented the Commons Trade and Industry Select Committee where the company told MPs the company's brands were "prime targets for those seeking to create designs sailing ever closer to the wind which test the law to its limits while weakening our position."

 

[Tom]

But that's just the name, surely? If I were to mix a colour exactly the same as Coke Red and sprayed my car with it, what could anyone do about it? Sure if I sold said car and described it in the advert as being Coke Red in colour, that's a different matter because I'd be using the name.

 

[Pford75]

Well the question is 'how do you get Coke Red' in the first place? For example, Tiffany Blue (Pantone 1837) is a trademarked colour and therefore doesn't appear in the Pantone books (I believe there are others like this).

Tiffany Blue is the colloquial name for the blue color associated with Tiffany & Co., the New York City jewelry company.

The Tiffany Blue color is protected as a color trademark by Tiffany & Co. in some jurisdictions including the U.S.[1][2]

The color is produced as a private custom color by Pantone, with PMS number 1837, the number deriving from the year of Tiffany's foundation. As a trademarked color, it is not publicly available and is not printed in the Pantone Matching System swatch books

Back to the thread....I think the issue is that you can't take in a F&B colour and ask your local supplier to 'copy' this....with another paint...since that would be infringing on their trademark. The supplier would in effect be supplying 'XXX's version of 'Hardwick White' .....given the quote from F&B pursuing ICI, I can see why they wouldn't want to do that

 

[LadyArowana]

If you want "Tiffany Blue" couldn't you just cut a piece from one of their bags and take it to be scanned ? Seems like the perfect excuse for some shopping. Makes me think I might need some Cartier red somewhere.

 

[robgil]

ford white just looks like every other white in my eyes.

see?

http://www.autopaintsbrighton.co.uk/ford-diamond-white-cellulose-car-paint-1l-gloss-1184-p.asp

 

[Flyfisher]

What about those 'colour match' services seen in the DIY sheds (Dulux, I think?) where you can take in a sample of something and they'll match it. I've never tried it but presumably they use a simple colour analyser and some sort of calculation of the required quantities of each colourant.

I think the idea is that you can take along a swatch of your curtains or other furnishing for matching but it would be just as easy to take use the same process to match anything.

Is that copyright infringement?

 

[JoceAndChris]

The thing is - as Biff so eloquently explained - colour is just one element. You could have a piece of silk and a piece of polyester in precisely the same shade and they'd look and react to the light completely differently, and feel differently, and last differently.

It's the ingredients of FnB paint that won't be matched in the Dulux matching - and that's partly what sets it apart.

I am prepared to believe Joss that Rose of Jericho is even better. But I'm not prepared to believe that I couldn't spot the difference between true Farrow and Ball and colour matched Farrow and Ball in an entirely different kind of paint.

(God - you should see me with lipsticks - I'll get my coat)

 

[Feltwell]

What about those 'colour match' services seen in the DIY sheds (Dulux, I think?) where you can take in a sample of something and they'll match it. I've never tried it but presumably they use a simple colour analyser and some sort of calculation of the required quantities of each colourant.

It just finds the nearest colour from the Dulux colour mixing range, i.e. all the swatch cards they have up in the shop - it doesn't match it exactly to the colour you've brought in.

 

[Lime]

What about those 'colour match' services seen in the DIY sheds (Dulux, I think?) where you can take in a sample of something and they'll match it. I've never tried it but presumably they use a simple colour analyser and some sort of calculation of the required quantities of each colourant.

It just finds the nearest colour from the Dulux colour mixing range, i.e. all the swatch cards they have up in the shop - it doesn't match it exactly to the colour you've brought in.

No that is not true.
The modern scanners analyse the colour and reproduce it in it's entirety.
nothing to do with matching colour cards or anything else.
I have several colours held in the local paint shop that are specific to me... as I created them in the first place.

 

[MatthewC]

Farrow & Ball - now you've got me started.

At the direction of the church architect, I used their exterior eggshell (semi-gloss) oil-based paint, even though it was some £35 for 2.5 litres. This was used on seven external doors, four roof dormer doors, plus five dormer windows, starting in 2005. These were all softwood items (apart from one door which was part oak, part pine!) which nearly all had to be stripped, repaired as required, primed with Farrow and Ball white exterior primer and top-coated. They all looked great when they were done but, by the time I got to the fifth (and last) roof dormer doors and the sixth (and last) five dormer window in April 2010, nearly all of the earlier items were showing a sort of faded dusty bloom on the surface. Even north facing doors were like it.

I spoke to their technical advisers but no one could say what I had done wrong (if anything). It just seemed that their paint was not up to an exposed position, despite being advertised as "External".

I then found that the paint I had been using was no longer made as it has been replaced with an eco range, which was now £48 for 2.5 litres! Are they having a laugh? (BTW, if you want to know what class rejection feels like, wear work clothes and try to buy something in their South Kensington shop...!) I then found that a local shop who would supply and mix the right colour in oil-based Sanderson paint, for about £33 for 2.5 litre as I recall. And then I repainted ten of the above mentioned 16 items before running out of time when I moved.

So that's a no, I'm not using F&B again.

 

[Feltwell]

No that is not true.
The modern scanners analyse the colour and reproduce it in it's entirety.
nothing to do with matching colour cards or anything else.
I have several colours held in the local paint shop that are specific to me... as I created them in the first place.

Might be true in your local paint shop, but certainly up to 5 years ago I can assure you that in B&Q it just went to the nearest card, and they had the same Dulux system as the other DIY sheds. Insider knowledge!

 

[Lime]

I can't talk about B&Q because I have never bought paint from them.
when I last looked they had very cheap loss-leaders (brilliant white for example) but everything else was very expensive... and this is off the shelf paint.
The modern paint scanner has moved on considerably from what it once was.
Certainly I was able to get an excellent match both in oil paint and emulsion using the scanner in a Crown decorating centre.
.. not crown paint I may add but a much cheaper one.

Like so many things today price is no guide at all for quality.

... As a matter of interest, that is why I originally bought F&B paint decades ago.
It was cheap, old fashioned but of excellent quality.