Exposed Stone

[Jill]

As we will also be having an exposed stone wall in one of our rooms then I vote in favour. Our wall was covered in cement render and had to be chipped off. We still need to do the lime pointing but it isn't on the immediate to do list. What I don't like is when people expose part of a wall in a random pattern.

 

[Penners]

This leads to an interesting question.

Are we expecting never to 'update' any parts of a Period Property? For me I don't wish to live in a museum and can fully accept such alterations, at the end of the day nothing has been lost. I will be tarred and feathered but I like the exposed stone, stripped wood and stainless steel look sometimes.

For me we are not trying to create a time warp in all occasions.

Ben

Of course period properties will get updated. I don't think anyone is foolish enough to imagine that the present-day inhabitants of a Tudor house will open an upstairs window, shout "Gardy loo!" and chuck their slops out into the street.

Period properties will have modern facilities installed - as they should. And they'll frequently be extended. The constraints are simply that, in a listed building (and IMO in any period property so far as possible), this should be done as sympathetically as possible, without destroying sound original fabric. The two requirements are not mutually exclusive.

As for living in a museum - any period house, and particularly a listed one, is a form of museum. It is an important and fascinating link with our cultural and architectural heritage. Why wouldn't you want to live in that?

 

[vicky whitworth]

I'm very confused by all this 'to expose or not' question. I used to think that bare stone was never exposed but the cottages in our village (mostly field rubble stone) appear to have never been rendered nor even limewashed externally. My cottage doesn't appear to have been rendered but was limewashed externally so that's what I have done - just limewashed.

I'm less confident about the internal finish in very poor, almost hovel vernacular buildings. Originally ours was a one room, no upstairs building. The poorest of the poor. Would these places really have been plastered? I just can't see them spending the money on it but I can see that unplastered rubble stone is very dusty so did they just live with the dust? Where we built an extension and an un-rendered external wall became the internal wall of our kitchen I had it re-pointed in lime and then I painted it with clay paint. I'm not sure it was the right thing to do but the clay paint has helped to consolidate the stone and pointing so no dust, and I like the look of it.

I can absolutely see that grander houses would not have had bare stone. Would the decision have hung on the status of the house and the wealth of the owner?

 

[Penners]

Expressions like "should" or "shouldn't", "were" or "weren't" really aren't appropriate, when it comes to describing period properties. The answer to every one of your questions is almost certain to "sometimes".

 

[JoceAndChris]

Well said Mr P. I know I come across as a purist b*tch from hell sometimes but I also really think this issue is altered by so many mitigating circumstances.

So many period properties have become very contemporary on the inside, that's not my taste, I cry over the loss of period features, but if you like that look, great - enjoy it - damn sight more comfy than what I have here.

I just can't see them spending the money on it but I can see that unplastered rubble stone is very dusty so did they just live with the dust?

I think that concept of yours - spend money on it - is a modern one - yes, tradesmen have always existed but the poor would have carried out quick fixes with locally available materials, same as now surely? If they could have plastered and painted, I'm sure they would have. This house was originally for a gamekeeper, probably, and shows evidence of lime plastering everywhere. However, the staircase leading up to the attic, I guess where a lowlier maid or his children slept, has never been painted. It wasn't considered worth the effort.

As for living in a museum - any period house, and particularly a listed one, is a form of museum. It is an important and fascinating link with our cultural and architectural heritage. Why wouldn't you want to live in that?

Completely agree.

 

[Ushy M]

MdB and Mrs MdB - I think what you've done with your wall looks great! (Mrs MdB's pointing is neater than mine!). No views on whether it should be lime plastered or not. We have several exposed (not by us) walls in our house. I want them plastered, Mr M not so sure as it has at least exposed a blocked doorway which hints at some possible history of the house.

Joce, they got round the dust problem with our stone walls by painting them with matt varnish (by the looks of things) which I guess is going to have to be Nitromorsed off if we plaster.

MdB - can you explain a bit more about the steel pins? As you know, we have a wall that needs some tying in to its adjacent one and we're thinking of using your steel rod idea. Can you tell us where you got them from ? (is it a recognised system?) and how you tied them together, as they appear to cross at right angles in one of the pictures. Thanks

 

[Penners]

Well said Mr P. I know I come across as a purist b*tch from hell sometimes....... I cry over the loss of period features

Good grief! I certainly didn't intend to imply that description of you or anyone else!

I have nothing against purism, but I also have nothing against the concept of making period properties habitable to 21st century standards. As I said above, I don't think this needs to result in the loss of period features (which, like you, I mourn when they're gone). You can achieve a comfortable home within a period building by adding, rather than removing.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

You can achieve a comfortable home within a period building by adding, rather than removing.

Penners, that is one of the wisest things posted on this forum - it should go on the "sticky" for new forum members. I think it probably succintly sums up the approach of the majority of us.

 

[Flyfisher]

MdB - can you explain a bit more about the steel pins? As you know, we have a wall that needs some tying in to its adjacent one and we're thinking of using your steel rod idea. Can you tell us where you got them from ? (is it a recognised system?) and how you tied them together, as they appear to cross at right angles in one of the pictures.

I don't mean to steal MdB's thunder but while he's away I thought it might be helpful to mention Helifix: http://www.helifix.co.uk/.

This is a recognised system and was recommended to us by the structural surveyor who assessed our house. We have lots of rubble walls in various states of repair and the helifix system was suggested as a way of tying things together. We've used them to stabilise some small areas of loose brickwork. However, for large areas or active subsidence I would suggest their application should be properly specified by a structural engineer.

 

[MdB]

MdB - can you explain a bit more about the steel pins? As you know, we have a wall that needs some tying in to its adjacent one and we're thinking of using your steel rod idea. Can you tell us where you got them from ? (is it a recognised system?) and how you tied them together, as they appear to cross at right angles in one of the pictures. Thanks

I probably shouldn't have posted that picture...

What I did was a completely unrecognised way of holding the wall together. I wouldn't recommend it for anybody else without a lot of careful thought. I used it as it was easily available, cheap and better than nothing. It is simply A2 stainless M6 threaded bar (studding) together with stainless M6 nuts and stainless M6 penny washers.

My wall is made from very poor quality stone held together with mud + a very small amount of lime. It is also badly constructed with the centre of the wall being mainly void and the two sides moving apart. Fixing to the stone was out of the question as it just breaks when put under any stress so instead I simply placed the rods + washers in available cracks (which there were unfortunately many) and filled them with lime and stone as appropriate. Lime is terrible in tension and simply cracks so will do little to stop the wall moving apart down the middle. The rods and washers however will get over this problem by working in the same way as reinforcing rods in concrete (which is also fairly poor in tension) and cause the lime to be put into compression instead of tension if the walls move.

A more recognised way of doing the same thing is to use a product like helibar:
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/84070/Building/Builders-Metalwork/Crack-Repair-Helibar-10-x-1m-Pack-of-10
http://www.helifix.co.uk/
http://www.mikewye.co.uk/mikeprices.htm#cobblocksandcobbricks

This works out about twice as expensive as studding and isn't as easily available but probably does a better job as the lime will lock to it along its length.

 

[Penners]

one of the wisest things posted on this forum

Hurrah! I did it!

If you bash away randomly on a keyboard for long enough, sooner or later you end up fooling someone into thinking that you know what you're talking about.

My next target: the works of Shakespeare.

 

[chuckey]

I used stainless steel rodding to tie bits of my pigsty together, but I found that Wickes SS rods for their glass block wall was cheaper. Its a helix type constuction so its helibar by a different name (can't imagine many makers of this stuff). For horizontal courses I used long SS wall ties "straightened" out, i.e. left straightish but with a lot of wobbles to stop them pulling through the mortar.
Frank

 

[Alex]

MdB, your wall looks gorgeous and the colour of the stone is lovely. I appreciate it in other peoples homes but it is not something I would have in mine. I, on the otherhand, have stripped and waxed all of our cottages pine ledged and braced doors. I know they would not have been like this originally, I know they would have been painted but I like them that way and I haven't damaged any of the cottage's historic fabric. I know stripped pine is not to everyone's taste. Good luck to you, at least you know that what you are doing, will mean that your house is there long after we have all gone.
Alex.

 

[Ushy M]

Thanks to all for Helibar info - not sure if this is applicable in our case as it is a corner we need to "stitch" together (it looks as if the front of the house was re-faced at some point and it isn't properly tied in to the gable end wall). Will do further research....

 

[MdB]

Thanks to all for Helibar info - not sure if this is applicable in our case as it is a corner we need to "stitch" together (it looks as if the front of the house was re-faced at some point and it isn't properly tied in to the gable end wall). Will do further research....

Helifix can apparantly be bent around corners.

 

[Penners]

Helifix can apparantly be bent around corners.

Typical bankers. They used to be much straighter back in the days when they were just a building society.

 

[chuckey]

I actually employed a few of the bars to tie the wall at corners. The corners at a weak point on rough stone walls because the overlapping stones forming the corner bonding , in reality are like two bars of soap. No good surfaces to interlock. Now if you are lucky to have a house with fully dressed stone inside and out . . . 8)
Not only can Helifix often be bent, they are always twisted.
Frank