EV Charger Grade 2 Listed

[Toby Newell]

Hmm. I hesitate to post this for fear of a midnight knock on the door but I bought an EV last year and it didn't occur to me to seek permission to install a charging point - and we're G2*!

I suppose much depends on the location and visibility but, as I understand it, listing is not intended to 'stop time' as far as our historic buildings are concerned. I'm guessing we all have inside lavatories these days, something that was a new innovation for my grandparents and so many of their generation, even as late as post-WW2. We all have electricity, which has arguably 'ruined' the authentic candle-light of period living and I'd bet that all of our kitchens bear little or no resemblance to originality.

The fact is that no one wants to live in a genuinely authentic period property and if such a thing were enforced by the listing process then such properties would be unsaleable and empty - and nothing decays as fast as an empty property!

In the process of restoring/renovating my house over the past 15 years, I've successfully applied for 4 LBCs, which I've posted about before. However, I've also done some works without LBC because they are invisible (eg complete new drainage systems), an improvement of what previously existed (eg replacing an uneven, spalled brick patio with new clay pavers) or non-destructive and easily reversible items such as connecting to the mains gas supply and installing radiators and multi-fuel stoves. I can't remember the source but there is a saying about it being easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

There are some things that are so obviously 'right' that they shouldn't need permisssion. The problem, of course, is subjectivity. Historic England's own advice is that "You will need listed building consent for all work to a listed building that involves alterations, extensions or demolition and will affect its character as a building of special architectural or historic interest." In the context of installing an EV charger, my interpretation of this advice is that there is no "alteration, extension or demolition" involved and that a barely visible EV charger (in my case, on the side of an existing brick buttress) does not affect the "character as a building of special architectural or historic interest". So, I didn't apply for LBC because I really don't believe that any sensible CO would pursue a complaint and even if they did and even if my appeal was not successful then the EV charger could be removed without causing any damage. I can sleep soundly at night with that decision and so far, so good.

I read recently in the news (after this thread was started) that Historic England will have to obey new planning laws that make explicit provision to allow alterations to do with climate change and net zero etc. I am not sure if this was a white paper and when it will be implemented. The examples used were wind turbines and PV panels but I presume EV chargers would fall under the same purview. This seems like common sense so was very glad to read about it.

I feel the same way about extractor fans, seeing as they protect against black mould that is a class H hazard I cannot see any but the most fuddy duddy magistrates that would uphold an HE petition to have them removed, same with EV chargers if the magistrate has grandchildren and a conscience.

 

[Flyfisher]

I've not seen that but it makes sense and indicates the official sentiment about such things.

As you mentioned PV panels, I'll add that I've also installed these together with a home battery. As you probably know, roof-mounted PV panels are permitted development but not if the property is listed. Fair enough, and I never once thought of roof-mounted PV panels anyway. We're fortunate to have a lot of space around the house so a ground-mounted PV array seemed like the way to go, especially as the ideal south-facing location was hidden from the house by trees and was also not visible from any neighbouring houses. Nevertheless, mindful of the curtilage rules, I contacted our CO to explain my plans and he duly visited to have a look. He was very supportive and happy with the proposed location but when I thanked him and said I'd prepare an LBC application he said it would not be necessary, which was a pleasant surprise!

 

[Toby Newell]

I think the issue is that climate change, whilst here already and causing billions of pounds worth of damage and thousands of extra deaths every year has not really reached the unimaginable levels of destruction that it will wreak. We are talking about mass migration of billions of people, the deaths of hundreds of millions of people and animals and the largest upheaval to civilisation since the Black Death in the 1300's. At some point we are going to have to get serious about it, for the sake of our great grandchildren, in the light of which worrying about whether something looks nice or not is pretty irrelevant.

 

[masochists-r-us]

Hmm. I hesitate to post this for fear of a midnight knock on the door but I bought an EV last year and it didn't occur to me to seek permission to install a charging point - and we're G2*!

I suppose much depends on the location and visibility but, as I understand it, listing is not intended to 'stop time' as far as our historic buildings are concerned. I'm guessing we all have inside lavatories these days, something that was a new innovation for my grandparents and so many of their generation, even as late as post-WW2. We all have electricity, which has arguably 'ruined' the authentic candle-light of period living and I'd bet that all of our kitchens bear little or no resemblance to originality.

The fact is that no one wants to live in a genuinely authentic period property and if such a thing were enforced by the listing process then such properties would be unsaleable and empty - and nothing decays as fast as an empty property!

In the process of restoring/renovating my house over the past 15 years, I've successfully applied for 4 LBCs, which I've posted about before. However, I've also done some works without LBC because they are invisible (eg complete new drainage systems), an improvement of what previously existed (eg replacing an uneven, spalled brick patio with new clay pavers) or non-destructive and easily reversible items such as connecting to the mains gas supply and installing radiators and multi-fuel stoves. I can't remember the source but there is a saying about it being easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

There are some things that are so obviously 'right' that they shouldn't need permisssion. The problem, of course, is subjectivity. Historic England's own advice is that "You will need listed building consent for all work to a listed building that involves alterations, extensions or demolition and will affect its character as a building of special architectural or historic interest." In the context of installing an EV charger, my interpretation of this advice is that there is no "alteration, extension or demolition" involved and that a barely visible EV charger (in my case, on the side of an existing brick buttress) does not affect the "character as a building of special architectural or historic interest". So, I didn't apply for LBC because I really don't believe that any sensible CO would pursue a complaint and even if they did and even if my appeal was not successful then the EV charger could be removed without causing any damage. I can sleep soundly at night with that decision and so far, so good.

I wouldn't worry too much. A thorough search of the planning register for our county found but 1 single application for an EV charger on a Listed Building which was finally determined a few days ago and approved, thankfully. On that basis, hopefully mine will be too. However, I simply cannot believe that we're only the second LB owners in the county getting an electric vehicle, in fact I know of others like you that just went ahead and installed a charge point anyway. As long as no one complains to the LA, all will be well and if they do, you might have to make a retrospective application. It's a similar situation to satellite dishes and TV aerials. They're everywhere on Listed Buildings and although you should apply, hardly anyone does.

 

[DH77]

I run an EV. I’m lucky enough to have an outbuilding that has power and is outside the curtilage of the listing.

I understand listed building consent is required to put a charger on a listed building. If you were to put a charger on your listed building without consent, would the LBC Police come down on you like a ton of bricks and sentence you to 30 years hard labour or could you plead ignorance and would they just make you remove it?

Considering we are not supposed to be able to buy fossil fuel vehicles in the not too distant future. Surely the Authorities have got to embrace the future, listed building or not.

Or do they expect us to walk or get the bus

Hi. Does your outbuilding have a standard fuse box in - e.g. like you would find in a detached garage? We are looking into buying an old corn mill (Grade 2 listed building) and the garage is outside the curtilage of the building. We already own 2 EVs so need to see if we can get the charge box installed on the garage rather than the mill. TIA.

 

[Flyfisher]

I'd say that this is a question for whoever is going to install the EV charger. Assuming it's a standard single-phase 7kW then it will require a dedicated 32 amp circuit, so even if the garage has a consumer unit it will depend on how it has has been installed and whether it has the capacity to add another 32A circuit. But even if the existing CU could not support an EV charger, there will be other options for installing a charger, which the installer should be able to explain.

 

[DH77]

I'd say that this is a question for whoever is going to install the EV charger. Assuming it's a standard single-phase 7kW then it will require a dedicated 32 amp circuit, so even if the garage has a consumer unit it will depend on how it has has been installed and whether it has the capacity to add another 32A circuit. But even if the existing CU could not support an EV charger, there will be other options for installing a charger, which the installer should be able to explain.

Thanks. We are going to speak to the current owners and see if we can get an EV installer to take a look.

 

[Nick Godfrey]

I have a grade 2 listed house. How do I find out if the separate garage is in the curtilage of the house

 

[CliffordPope]

I wouldn't worry too much. A thorough search of the planning register for our county found but 1 single application for an EV charger on a Listed Building which was finally determined a few days ago and approved, thankfully. On that basis, hopefully mine will be too. However, I simply cannot believe that we're only the second LB owners in the county getting an electric vehicle, in fact I know of others like you that just went ahead and installed a charge point anyway. As long as no one complains to the LA, all will be well and if they do, you might have to make a retrospective application. It's a similar situation to satellite dishes and TV aerials. They're everywhere on Listed Buildings and although you should apply, hardly anyone does.

Authorities all around the country have piously joined in and declared this to be a Climate Change Emergency. If the word "emergency" means anything at all other than just virtue-signaling then it means that tackling it takes precedence over virtually all other considerations. It means all rules can be set aside in the interests of fighting the emergency.

 

[Toby Newell]

Authorities all around the country have piously joined in and declared this to be a Climate Change Emergency. If the word "emergency" means anything at all other than just virtue-signaling then it means that tackling it takes precedence over virtually all other considerations. It means all rules can be set aside in the interests of fighting the emergency.

Actually there were white papers published, last year I believe, that aimed to reduce red tape when considering planning applications regarding renewable energy based alterations, so things seem to be moving in the right direction, unless you live in Islington of course...

But I agree. I thought an emergency was a sudden, unexpected event. The science behind climate change has been established for over half a century. A more semantically correct descriptor would be a VF urgent existential problem. All moot as most bio / enviro / green initiatives are simply propoganda to help authorities to cut costs / raise taxes or to keep consumers consuming whilst they diligently and dissonantly wash out their yoghurt pots on the way to the landfill / incinerator or shipment to developing countries for an environmentally uncertain future.

Interesting how comparatively almost no one bats an eyelid at the brain meltingly massive lie that is net zero. Every year we destroy carbon sequestration machines that build themselves, cost nothing, are maintenance free, self healing and self replicating, roughly the size of Portugal. They are called 'trees'. To stand still in carbon terms, (as well as freezing resouce utilisation growth, reducing the birth rate and / or introducing limited compulsory euthanasia) we need then to build a carbon capture machine as efficient to run as a tree, roughly the size of Portugal. Every. Year. Where is this 90,000 square kilometre machine? I don't see it. There is an obvious solution to this of course, but that's the point. Cutting down trees make money. It's all rather pathetically obvious to those of us not plugged into the matrix.

The free market will not stop it's relentless hunger to increase consumption and profits year on year until the monetary cost of the effects of climate change exceed the available GDP to mitigate them, at that point the free market would lose more money doing nothing. So. It's a self regulating system based upon greed, not on knowledge or science. Why else would we stage the world's most important climate management meeting, COP28, in the world's 7th largest fossil fuel producer, and let it be chaired by a climate denying oil tycoon? Any visiting aliens will be turning to each other in their flying saucers and giving each other exceedingly hard and perplexing stares.

In the mean time green marketing is used to sell us more stuff using woo woo science in order to placate our fears and keep us consuming whilst authorities induct draconian money making measures in the guise of responsible policies. It's all incredibly feeble and human. Just buy less stuff, eat less and go on less holidays. And feel happy you don't live 200 years into the future.

 

[Flyfisher]

I have a grade 2 listed house. How do I find out if the separate garage is in the curtilage of the house

If the house is in a 'normal' sized plot and the garage is obviously part of the overall dwelling, even though it is physically detached, then I'd say it's almost certainly within the curtilage of the house. For a more definite answer specific to your listed property, it would likely require a conversation with your local council historic buildings officer. Details should be found on the council website.

 

[Rob Duff]

If the house is in a 'normal' sized plot and the garage is obviously part of the overall dwelling, even though it is physically detached, then I'd say it's almost certainly within the curtilage of the house. For a more definite answer specific to your listed property, it would likely require a conversation with your local council historic buildings officer. Details should be found on the council website.

Hi, As as town planner but also the owner of a listed building, I feel your pain about the need for planning permision: As your house is listed, it does not benefit from permitted development rights unlisted buildings have which allow certain development without permission, such as installing car chargers, & thus planning permission is required.

The following link is a response from Historic England to a Gov't proposal to amend planning advice on installing car chargers: https://historicengland.org.uk/cont...response-electric-vehicle-chargepoints-oct19/

HE is not only stating that car chargers are on the whole acceptable & will casue no harm, but are also stating that they would support the instillation of car chargers as an exception even if installing them does harm the setting of a listed building: This is a very sensible position for HE to take, accepting that saving the planet is probably of greater importance than the limited harm that could be caused by installing a car charger.

What is curtilage is a subjective matter. Case law has proven that curtilage is the small area around a house that is functionally & spatially linked to it. i.e. it is not seperated from the house by a boundary wall & it is used for purposes incidental to the occupation of the house (a garage/to store resdiential items/ a workshop.

A useful definition is: “a small court, yard, garth or piece of ground attached to a dwellinghouse, and forming one enclosure with it, or so regarded by the law; the area attached to and containing a dwellinghouse and its outbuildings”

If your garage is on a piece of land spatially seperated from your house & garden by say a garden wall or fence, it is most likely not within the curtilage of the house & is not listed even if it is functionally used by the occupiers of the house: It must be both spatially & functionally linked to be curtilage.

Notwithstanding the above, I agree with Flyfisher & recommend that you have a chat to the Council's Conservation Officer: Even though overworked due to cuts over the last 14 years, Conservation Officers are generally very helpful.

 

[LadyArowana]

We had an electric supply put into our garage against such time as we might need a charging point, the cost was surprisingly reasonable considering they had to dig up a long run of pavement, close off half the road and make everything good afterwards, which all took almost a week. The garage is well away from our house, so no issues with LBC, however if we had needed something within our curtilage then I would have explored the in ground options, I’ve seen those in London and surely they wouldn’t fall foul of rules about impacting the special nature of the building as they disappear when not in use. This happens to not be a UK link but I’m away amd too lazy to find anything more specific. https://www.streetplug.nl/en/charging-solution/

 

[CliffordPope]

Interesting. If it's in the road how do they stop non-users parking on top of it? Our local town is full of cars ignoring yellow lines, wheels up on pavements, etc. If this device is designed to be so inconspicuous then even conscientious drivers could surely innocently not even notice one.

 

[LadyArowana]

I saw them in a residential area of Camden, so a residents parking control area and EV specific. The nice areas like Hampstead are happy hunting ground for Parking Enforcement Officers so wayward cars get fined. The ‘not so nice’ areas of Camden are happy hunting ground for the theft of catalytic converters if not the entire car, so there are disincentives for miscreants

 

[sculptedinstone]

Hmm. I hesitate to post this for fear of a midnight knock on the door but I bought an EV last year and it didn't occur to me to seek permission to install a charging point - and we're G2*!

I suppose much depends on the location and visibility but, as I understand it, listing is not intended to 'stop time' as far as our historic buildings are concerned. I'm guessing we all have inside lavatories these days, something that was a new innovation for my grandparents and so many of their generation, even as late as post-WW2. We all have electricity, which has arguably 'ruined' the authentic candle-light of period living and I'd bet that all of our kitchens bear little or no resemblance to originality.

The fact is that no one wants to live in a genuinely authentic period property and if such a thing were enforced by the listing process then such properties would be unsaleable and empty - and nothing decays as fast as an empty property!

In the process of restoring/renovating my house over the past 15 years, I've successfully applied for 4 LBCs, which I've posted about before. However, I've also done some works without LBC because they are invisible (eg complete new drainage systems), an improvement of what previously existed (eg replacing an uneven, spalled brick patio with new clay pavers) or non-destructive and easily reversible items such as connecting to the mains gas supply and installing radiators and multi-fuel stoves. I can't remember the source but there is a saying about it being easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

There are some things that are so obviously 'right' that they shouldn't need permisssion. The problem, of course, is subjectivity. Historic England's own advice is that "You will need listed building consent for all work to a listed building that involves alterations, extensions or demolition and will affect its character as a building of special architectural or historic interest." In the context of installing an EV charger, my interpretation of this advice is that there is no "alteration, extension or demolition" involved and that a barely visible EV charger (in my case, on the side of an existing brick buttress) does not affect the "character as a building of special architectural or historic interest". So, I didn't apply for LBC because I really don't believe that any sensible CO would pursue a complaint and even if they did and even if my appeal was not successful then the EV charger could be removed without causing any damage. I can sleep soundly at night with that decision and so far, so good.

May I ask from whom you purchased it/had it installed? All the suppliers I've contacted have explicitly asked me about listing consent.

 

[Flyfisher]

I had it installed by a local installer at the same time as some PV panels and batteries. I suppose it's a good thing that your suppliers have been mindful of any listing implications but as I understand things it's the owner's responsibility for any work carried out on a listed property and that includes any subcontracted work under their authority.

So if you ask an installer to do the work then it's not their specific responsibility to obtain any necessary consent, though of course they might ask if you'd like them to apply on your behalf.

Therefore, it's really for you to decide whether you want to apply (or ask the installer to apply on your behalf) for consent or not. As I described above, I decided that consent was not necessary and the installer was happy to go ahead. Obviously it's your choice but I would suggest that if you can find somewhere unobtrusive to locate the charger then there is unlikely to be a problem. In my case the charger is barely visible from the front of the house so I can't imagine anyone complaining about it and even if they did I can't imagine the council spending time and money (and consequent bad publicity!) to force it's removal, but even if they did then it could be easily removed or relocated with no damage to the property except a couple of screw holes. Hardly the crime of the century

Having said that, if you're really concerned, you could try emailing your council's historic building officer with a photo of the house showing the proposed position of the charger and ask if you need LBC for it.

 

[Lithgae]

Not in a listed building but conservation area so also normally need planning permission for changes to the externals. Had EV charger installed by wife's employer for her company car. I didn't want it on the front of the house so asked them to fit it just around the corner on the side wall where it is fairly unobtrusive and got a longer charge cable to reach the driveway. In that position it is close to an similar in size to the gas meter box, which I doubt needed or received planning permission. House nearby have charger on the front of their listed property and didn't get planning permission.

I suspect that if it is done in an unobtrusive manner that it will never be an issue. I doubt the council will want the bad publicity of enforcement action on EV chargers, especially if they are inconspicuous. Its a bit like changing the colour of your front door. Rarely does anyone apply for planning permission and it usually only becomes an enforcement issue if you paint it bright pink and someone complains to the council.