Escaping modern aesthetics

[formerly known as]

Flyfisher - I agree with your general comment, although it could be argued that the refashioning of facades and interiors was done in a more informed manner in stylistic terms at least. The insertion of sash windows came via the neo-classical; what movement has triggered the use of poorly designed replacement windows? .... as far as I can tell, it has come from those such as the aggressive salesman - 'you buy one, you get one free' .......... :wink:

 

[Lime]

Flyfisher - I agree with your general comment, although it could be argued that the refashioning of facades and interiors was done in a more informed manner in stylistic terms at least. The insertion of sash windows came via the neo-classical; what movement has triggered the use of poorly designed replacement windows? .... as far as I can tell, it has come from those such as the aggressive salesman - 'you buy one, you get one free' .......... :wink:

All brought about by ever increasing fuel prices and the supposedly green aspirations to save the planet, as well as man's life long wish to do as little maintenance as possible.
If my neighbours are anything to go by they must have saved a fortune in fuel bills by changing their windows at least 3 times in the 25 years I have lived here.
The planet must be so grateful in their attempt to save it and the window purveyors thankful for all the cash.
If they leave the windows alone for the next 200 years they may just start to break even.

 

[Flyfisher]

Don't get me started . . . but yes, in a nutshell.

Interesting point, FKA, about the refashioning of facades and interiors as part of an informed movement. You're right, of course, in an historic sense, but I wonder if it was regarded that way at the time? Perhaps future generations will assign a 'movement' to the seemingly fashionable uPVC of today?

I jest of course, because it's too depressing to think it could be so, though stranger things have happened . . . like the 'Victorian revival' movement of the Yuppie 80s when the travesties visited on perfectly good old doors by the 50/60s 'Bucknell Movement' were being reversed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RVnzu0COFU

 

[CliffordPope]

I think we all like to refashion our notion of the past to our own image while telling ourselves it is restoration.
I have sometimes commented on pictures submitted here by people who clearly genuinely believe they have carried out a sympathetic change, but who have often in my view merely bought into a fashionable 2015 view of what the past looked like.
It will all change again in years to come. Any predictions on when the first uPVC window gets listed? There will be tips here on how to preserve good early examples of decaying plastic, and the desecrations carried out by people who rip out PVC windows and put wooden ones into houses that never had them originally will be decried.

 

[formerly known as]

http://www.residence9.co.uk/

good grief.

 

[formerly known as]

http://planbloc.co.uk/

x2

fabrication / recreation would appear to be moving further away from craft skill .....................

 

[Flyfisher]

At least they are made of real flint . . . . aren't they? Please tell me they're not plastic replicas!

A sign of the times in which time and skill means money and everyone wants the lowest prices for the fastest job. Something's gotta give.

 

[plasticpigeon]

I think we all like to refashion our notion of the past to our own image while telling ourselves it is restoration.
I have sometimes commented on pictures submitted here by people who clearly genuinely believe they have carried out a sympathetic change, but who have often in my view merely bought into a fashionable 2015 view of what the past looked like.

This is my original point. We are (or at least I am) so surrounded by unornamented badly proportioned ugliness that I find it really hard to break from the norm. What form and proportions did beautiful old windows take for example? I can tell when something is wrong, but that doesn't mean I can design something right, as what is well proportioned and attractive isn't commonplace. I have to find old architectural books and books of old photographs, scour my area for the odd place that hasn't been ruined by the cheapest possible bodge and try my best to come up with something suitable. It has to be close to obsession. I do this not because I am slavishly trying to recreate the past, but because present day styles are so ugly to me, and I believe I can find more attractive inspiration from the past. It takes a special kind of idiot to to this, especially when the result is just one nicer looking house in a sea of dross. I still mess up too. I built a fire surround for the opening where a kitchen range would have been. I had to do it twice as I didn't care for the first one, but this is becasue I had pretty much nothing to reference for shape and proportion. I don't care for its colour either, but that was not my decision. I have recently fitted my bathroom. I am generally pleased with the result, but I used tile spacers that were too big (2mm), as I forgot that 1mm spacers were available as they are not sold in my local shop and I was pretty shattered, it is hard to fight the norm 100% of the time. My kitchen is laid ouut like a modern kitchen, as I want to embrace labour saving devices, but I had wooden cupboards made as I still appreciate nicely designed cupboards even if they are not laid out in a historically correct fashion. They are quite nice, the doors and drawers fit into the carcass which is more attractive to me than the fronts that fit onto the carcass. However the design is still flat and minimalsit, despite having panel doors and bun handles. I have 2 original built in cupboards in my house, both have reeding around the opening drawers and doors. A small detail perhaps but makes a huge difference to the look of the cupboard. It's a shame that this wasn't an option on the kichtchen that I bought, but plain and simple is what is offered. I would request it now, as I am getting to know what I like and what looks good, but as this stuff is so uncommon, it wasn't something I immediately thought of. I can't stand the idea that something I have done could have been done better (generally I mean more attractively) if only I had been better informed. I believe that a a massive amount of knowledge of ornament, material choice, proportion, colour and style has been lost, as it really doesn't exist now. Knowledge that seemingly used to be posessed by architects, speculative developers, artisans and tradespeople, seem now to be the the preserve of only the very best conservation architects. Clifford, you are welcome to tell me when I have missed a trick that our forefathers would not have had to think twice about.

 

[malcolm]

Just about everything I do could have been better had I been better informed. For me it is quality of craftsmanship and materials that is important more than historical accuracy, though I don't like to muck up anything original. I installed a slate undercloak today where there would never have been an undercloak in the past.

My house had a major change every 100 years or so, the last including a new facade built in front of the old one. It should be due another new facade about now in whatever the latest fashion is. The changes did save the building from demolition in the 1960s (unlike the unmodified houses across the road). The fashion now must be to preserve old stuff to some extent as I don't feel driven to make the front into a glass box.

I don't like most of the changes made in the last 100 years. Things like new cheap wooden windows pretending to be like the original sash but missing little details like using glass taller than it is wide. Installation missing little details like having the butchered original stone sill fall away from the window rather than towards it. Cheap and poorly done, and difficult to put right due to the cement. I don't like the roofer's detailing. It will need putting right sooner than it ought to.

That stuff is mainstream. Big companies making things with a short life for unskilled tradesmen to install. The thing I can't understand is it doesn't seem to actually cost any more to do the job properly.

 

[Lime]

It often costs more to do a job badly.

 

[TheRoost]

I think we all like to refashion our notion of the past to our own image while telling ourselves it is restoration.
I have sometimes commented on pictures submitted here by people who clearly genuinely believe they have carried out a sympathetic change, but who have often in my view merely bought into a fashionable 2015 view of what the past looked like.
It will all change again in years to come. Any predictions on when the first uPVC window gets listed? There will be tips here on how to preserve good early examples of decaying plastic, and the desecrations carried out by people who rip out PVC windows and put wooden ones into houses that never had them originally will be decried.

Would they bother to list any current or future buildings, with the exception of large landmark buildings, anyway?
We don't build nice dwelling houses and we haven't for a long time, I can't see that they would be coveted in the future. I can't imagine people hunting out 1996 safestyle windows in reclaimation yards to re-create the splendour of a semi-detached Barratt home :wink:

 

[TheRoost]

http://www.residence9.co.uk/

good grief.

Shocking. 'Windows..the way they're meant to be" what, oak effect plastic? they try hard to mislead readers on their own products and then mislead about how 'terrible' timber alternatives are.

 

[Flyfisher]

What's so great about wooden windows anyway? Useless rot-prone things that needs constant maintenance over their relatively short life. What's wrong with good old stone mullioned windows that would last the life of the building? I blame those modern carpenters and their new-fangled methods, pressurising everyone with their inferior products and making stone masons such a rare and expensive species that most people have little choice but to bow to the inevitable and choose inferior wooden windows. Windows as they're meant to be? Bah!








:wink:

 

[plasticpigeon]

Indeed. I've seen plenty of horrendous wooden windows too, almost all modern!!! I can't see anything wrong with plastic. I just haven't seen plastic windows that are of good proportions, or maybe I have and I didn't know! I would embrace plastic if it could be made with the elegant proportions of wooden single glazed windows. One for my to do list, and then retire on the royalties.

 

[JanieB]

This thread seems to compliment mine re philistine builders.

The façade of my house has "original" Georgian sash windows. I've had several salesmen over the years knock on my door and tell me that they aren't in very good condition and that I should change them for nice new upvc double glazed ones. There is nothing wrong with them. They are maintained and painted. My neighbours have all replaced their sashes, but have, thankfully, chosen wooden double glazed sashes.

But, these are not the original windows. It is obvious by the brickwork that the cottages originally had casements and when they were rebuilt in 1820 they were changed for sashes.

I like the wobbly glass!

My house also had a modern softwood front door which I have tried to find a replacement for for 4 years. I eventually had one made. I was promised it in 3 weeks but after a lot of nagging they finally fitted it 3 months later. The only small gripe I have is that the original frame had a rectangular glazed panel over the top of the door and I asked for that to be copied in the new frame, but it wasn't. Apart from that I love my new door.

 

[88v8]

This thread seems to compliment mine re philistine builders. .....I asked for that to be copied in the new frame, but it wasn't.

Perhaps your builder problem stems from you being too nice. Or too vague. Or both.

Ivor

 

[LadyArowana]

This thread seems to compliment mine re philistine builders. .....I asked for that to be copied in the new frame, but it wasn't.

Perhaps your builder problem stems from you being too nice. Or too vague. Or both.

Ivor

A lot of the trouble with builders stems from the fact that they are men, I am convinced that about 50% of the time men are not listening or reading properly, and not thinking about anything they hear or read anyway. Just last week I asked His Lordship at least 6 times if he had anything for dry cleaning before our big overseas trip and was told "No". I was told "No" six times, with the last time including the justification that there were still things hanging up with tags on......... 2 days later he said "oh I have some things for cleaning".... Grrrrrr and don't even get me started on the e.mail from a barrister who had the unfortunate name that was close to Victoria Secret, he ignored that ( obviously no jpg attachment LOL ) as it was assaumed to be just marketing stuff sigh.... I wonder how many times that happens to her por thing, all those years of study and people think you want to sell them frilly undies and bin your messages!
Rant over

 

[Feltwell]

50% of the time men are dry cleaning frilly undies?

Clearly I'm in a minority, I don't and I don't know anyone who does.

 

[LadyArowana]

50% of the time men are dry cleaning frilly undies?

Clearly I'm in a minority, I don't and I don't know anyone who does.

I will totally believe that 50% of the time men are thinking about frilly undies :roll:

 

[LadyArowana]

Fess up boys.... how many are thinking of frilly undies right this minute?