Elvaston castle Sell off

[Nimrod]

PFord75 is being misled on the matter.

Derbyshire County Council has advertised its intended disposal, via a Section 123A Local Government Act 1972 and Section 26(2) Town and Country Planning Act 1959 (Disposal of Open Space).

The authority gives notice of its intention to grant a 150 year lease of the Castle and part of the Country Park amounting to 150 acres of land including Home Farm, and the Stables area complex for a hotel with conference and leisure facilities (Castle courtyards and immediate area), craft businesses in the Stables area, golf course(s) extending onto surrounding land (not in Council ownership), golf club house.

Anyone visiting the Derbyshire County Council website will see that the authority describes Elvaston Castle Country Park as being 200 acres. Clearly, if 150 acres of this disappears, there won’t be too much left for the community.

Elsewhere, the County Council claims that the Country Park is 315 acres. It is precisely due to the confusion created by these and other major discrepancies that have led the Friends and the community to oppose the scheme.

The Friends have sound business proposals which have been scrutinised and approved by professional people. Naturally, it would be premature for them to be publicly aired at this time and they could not be reasonably expected to do so. These plans will restore and protect the present buildings and also the ongoing maintenance of the entire Estate and guarantee public access for all members of the community to all of the Parkland..

Let us put matters into perspective.

Derbyshire County Council has been marketing the Estate for the last eight years. The authority was prepared to sell the entire Estate either leasehold or freehold. Because of the reaction of the community, the Council, after the first attempted disposal failed, changed this to a leasehold, but is there really any difference when the lease is for 150 years anyway?

Nemesis also recognizes that the plans could go pear shaped. Obviously, the developers do not feel that the hotel is sustainable as a stand alone project, but needs golf courses to support it. A prestigious hotel in a rural setting less than 5 minutes away from Elvaston Castle by road, with golfing facilities in close proximity, has just been rescued after having spent a considerable amount of time in the hands of the receivers. English Heritage is urging caution over the building of golf courses in historic parkland. HOPING that a failsafe mechanism is in place is not really a sufficient enough way of allaying the public disquiet at not knowing exactly what is planned, especially if either the hotel or the golf courses fail. Obviously, the developers need both to be viable if the scheme is to be successful, according to their plan. The fear of course is that should one or other of these ventures fail, the future of the Estate would be in even greater danger than it otherwise would have been.

Originally, I believed I could have a reasoned and factual exchange of opinion. Nemesis, I saw as a sage sitting on top of the mountain, who would impart knowledge to others, but this was an illusion. As the debate has continued, Nemesis has descended to the barren plain at the foot of the mountain, abusive and dishevelled, seeking to peddle his or her wares to unsuspecting fellow travellers. Nemesis, the peddler, the wares that you sell are the developer’s propaganda. The desire for your wares I have none. To the desert you go. Our fellow travellers will decide who is selling the truth.

 

[Nemesis]

Oh dear - so I haven't agreed with you and fallen hook, line and sinker, so I am vilified as being wrong too. Anyone who disagrees with Nimrod, or doesn't fall into line, is to be vilified - see a previous post - and attempts made to belittle them. It's arather impoverished method of debate, I appreciate often used in a court of law by barristers without many scruples.

When the plans are published, then all can have some input. Until then, this is really quite pointless. It will change nothing at all. I assume by then the extent of the land will be clear to Nimrod, who appears confused, and how much of the 'disposed' land will be available for the public to use also. Lottery money will not be granted if there is no access.

I gather the County Council rejected the Friends as being suitable partners, so however worthy Nimrod feels is the cause it may be that they never have the opportunity to put those plans into action.

It is my understanding that a 99 year lease has been granted, not the 150 sought; however long leases of this type are required by those institutions supplying funding.

Interesting that I was invested at the outset with hopes that I could change anything at all - foolish of you, as I can't see where I claimed this.

As long as the building is not allowed to fall into further disrepair, how it is saved is not my personal concern. I have no ties whatsoever with any developer. I would be interested to see however the architect's ideas for the extra development.

I repeat - I have no doubt when the time comes and the plans are published fully all can have a more informed opinion. Without seeing the Friends' alleged alternative plans which so far remain shrouded in mystery there cannot be any debate about the relative merits of the opposing schemes.

 

[Nimrod]

You protest too much Nemesis – People will judge for themselves where the truth lies; If they can find the time or patience to dredge through your meanderings.

From further study you appear to be a professional forum writer, casting your pearls of wisdom to all in sundry. I trust that they haven’t fallen asleep. You have cheapened what is meant to be a serious platform for discussion, on what is a very serious matter to thousands of people both in the local community and beyond.

Your claim that the Friends of Elvaston have been rejected by the County Council is again, more propaganda. What you do reveal however is your bias in favour of an unworkable and unrealistic plan for a wholly unsuitable development at Elvaston Castle. Others may only surmise at what you might have to gain from this.

Anyone who wishes to visit the Friends of Elvaston website and learn the truth about what is going on can read the Friends’ Forward Plan for themselves on the Friends Website; http://www.friendsofelvaston.co.uk

 

[Nemesis]

A professional forum writer? Is there such a thing? Oh well. How wrong you are again. I'm simply someone with a serious interest in period property and as part of that campaigning for historic buildings under threat, as are a number of others who post on this site. I've been posting here a long time and most regular posters know who I am and I think will find your odd claims that I have anything to gain financially from any development at Elvaston laughable. I do contribute at times to others forums, as indeed I know do others who also post here.

From my perspective you appear to have many, if not all, of the attributes of a seasoned internet troll. I have to question if in reality you have no more knowledge of the Elvaston situation than certain snippets gleaned from the Friends' website and are spouting forth unrelated issues to appear as a person with insight, while your real motive is to attempt to vilify me. Certainly you have evaded many questions.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt however.

This at times is a serious forum - for discussion, for help with period property issues - at others posters have some fun, certainly some of it can be a spot ribald at times. If you don't care for the ethos of the forum you are free to not post here. In fact I think you are abusing now the hopsitality of the site owner, and before you make any further smears regarding my probity, I suggest you read the site policies.

Has it ever occurred to you that not everyone who doesn't totally agree with you, or who gently questions the viability of some of your plans, in which certain of us with experience of external funding can spot a number of potential flaws, isn't in the pockets of developers? I have never met any of the people concerned in this bid, and never had any contact of any kind. I do know of them, naturally, through their work elsewhere - I am a SPAB member, as indeed are others who post here, and the architect concerned was a SPAB committee member for many years, and highly regarded by many for his work for the cause of conservation. I know of Dr Spilsbury for her sterling work, along with many others of the great and the good of conservation, for Maintain our Heritage, a very worthy organisation indeed. Those are voluntary activities, in case you think otherwise.


You have used this site for your own ends, having as far as I am aware never posted here before now, to publicise 'your' website - which I note is a co.uk site, not a '.org' one. The Friends is not I think a registered charity?

I urge anyone who can be bothered to wade through your spleen venting and many misguded statements on so much of the Friends' website to treat it all with caution. It's becoming an increasingly bizarre site, and external support you may have had at the outset of this campaign you may well find is evaporating. I note that you fell out with the Elvaston Castle Trust. Local campaigns are so often damaged by infighting, and by lashing out at those who are considered 'the enemy'. It becomes far too emotive.

It's easy enough to whip up local support, national support may not be so easy to garner.

I began delving into this situation with an open mind; your behaviour on this site has left a very sour taste and you have lost at least one possible supporter for your cause. I suspect I'm not alone. A cynic may of course suggest that you are in reality in league with those who do not support the Friends, maybe even in league with developers, in order that possible supporters are dissuaded from joining the fray.

You have failed to answer many questions put to you here, including where plans for the future of Elvaston Castle can be viewed. If the County Council is listening to you, why are you not a 'preferred partner'?

I have no bias at all. When and if the plans for the Castle are published - and I have only an interest in the rescue of the historic buildings, the rest of the access to the country park issue I am not remotely interested in, and indeed I suggest has nothing to do with the scope of this site either, I will make up my own mind about them..

I am, as is any member of the public, able to object if I feel they are not in the best interests of a listed building, or go against national guidance for such buildings, as detailed in PPG 15. It's called democracy. As the planning authoriy clearly has an interest then the plans will also have to be passed by the Secretary of State, via the regional Government Office.

There is also the possiblity of a call-in and a public inquiry. I have two of those to prepare for at the moment, as I am objecting, as a third party, to plans regarding listed buildings. For one of those call-ins, several PPUK posters with considerable expertise in historic buildings also wrote to ask the Secretary of State to call in the plans. Off site, I think you will find many of us know each other and have similar interests.

I will gain nothing at all financially from any work I do for those either - it it is all at my own expense, in my own time. A great deal of my considerable body of research on the buildings I have shared with other parties, including conservation organsations of which I am a member, which will be appearing at those inquiries also. I am fortunate to have contacts in the wider world of conservation who, had you not shot yourself in the foot by making unsavoury allegations about my probity and failing to provide any coherent answers to a number of questions, I may have urged to also take a greater interest in the plans for the building. With so many cases each year statutory consultees and other organisations have only so many cases they can take up in depth.

I remind you again that English Heritage will have to have input into any plans for the building, as it is Listed Grade II*. If EH is not content, then EH too can object add considerable weight to the request for a call-in, at which it would appear to fight the plans.

So until all plans are finalised and in the public domain, as another poster has suggested, there is little anyone can do one way or another.

 

[Rocket]

Until now, I have merely been one of those people who occasionally browses the columns of Period Property UK but I have felt compelled to register in order that I may comment on what has unfolded daily on this particular thread.

It seems quite clear that whatever proposals that the County Council sees as a solution to the fiscal problems it claims to have with Elvaston Castle, a serious amount of disquiet has been caused amongst the general public, a significant number of whom are obviously objecting because they believe that the plans will lead to their exclusion from a park and house which they clearly attend in great numbers whenever they have the opportunity of doing so. If the estate has been a country park for a long time then this will reinforce their feelings of anger, isolation and dismay if they stand to lose it or have not been properly informed of what is happening or consulted with in an open and transparent manner by the Council.

I think that there is also a problem with the amount of listed and historic buildings which have already been turned into hotel/golf resorts in the name of ‘rescuing’ them. With the ever increasing loss of resources caused by the increase in the UK’s population and the tremendously rapid spread of house building programmes to cater for it, much greater care than previously has to be placed on our ever diminishing resources, especially public open spaces, including those which contain historic sites. What sites are left will require much greater clarity of thought, creativity and invention and will have to be available to all members of the community, rich and poor, not refurbished and sealed off to all but those with disposable income to spend. Changing public assets into privatised ones which then compete directly in the same market place is only a solution until the market becomes saturated.

I’m sorry but I have to criticise the imperious tones with which Nemesis replies to what are obviously the genuine concerns of a great many people. As laudable as your SPAB membership may be your tendency to resort to displays of childish rhetoric, “I’ll Suggest to English Heritage that they knock it down”, “I’m bored with this”, I’ve been writing on this site for a long time and you oughtn’t to be”, etc., are tiresome to read and do certainly amount to unprofessional conduct.

I hope that the other person has not been put off the site by these shenanigans and that such pretentious outpourings will now cease.

 

[Nemesis]

And of course you have had nothing to do with Nimrod! Merely an interested bystander!

Pull the other one. Another troll.

Don't bother spamming this site any longer to denigrate me - no one is interested. And as for unprofessional conduct - Oh dear! What profession is that then? Do you know? No, you don't. But it makes you sound important to say it.

There's a forum on the Elvaston site - use that.

I'm not interested in carrying this charade any further, and I am totally not interested in what happens to Elvaston Castle country park. I'm vaguely interested to see the plans for the new build, simply for aesthetic reasons. It's no longer at risk, not going to be demolished, move on, too many buildings, too little time. I have no desire whatsoever to waste my time in pointless debate about something I have no control over whatsoever, if you don't like what is happening take it through the official procedures open to you - planning and the law.

If the Friends feel they have a sound busines plan - fine. I've seen no signs of it but as Nimrod says, it will be revealed in time. Or it's available on the website. One or the other...

Yes it's boring, I have better things to do with my time at the moment than spend it in fruitless discussion with someone who is simply here to troll.

It's not even too special a building, nice enough and of course deserves not to slide into dereliction, but - too many buildings, not enough money for them all. Talk to the government about that - more of it is going to be spent on the Olympics, less on heritage. If the local community wants to fight for it, that's up to them. Open spaces - talk to the OSS.

I'm not 'the local community,' I have my own personal projects to carry on with, and as what I do is my own business and no-one else's, I suggest that if you wish to get twisted knickers you twist them over someone else.

When you and the other person starts answering questions about lime mortar and fireplces then maybe I'll start to think he or she has some interest in this site. Until then...

MY SPAB membership isn't laudable, I pay my cash same as you can do.

It's flattering that you all have so much time to waste worrying about what I think, but it's a bit sad don't you feel?

Time for another glass of wine, I suggest you do the same. If I drink enough I may even get the bulldozer revving.

(Oh, don't bother being pretendy sanctimonious - it's too far from here.)

 

[Nemesis]

http://www.oss.org.uk/

Although I think you'll find they haven't much time to help either.

 

[Rocket]

I would advise you to get your facts straight Nemesis, before you start throwing accusations about, although they do seem to be a little thin on the ground.

The wine you speak of has obviously gone straight to your head. All I can say is that it must have been a very large bottle!

 

[Nemesis]

Not large enough to have to put up with some of the idiots who post on here.

No don't bother getting all pretendy sanctimonious again as I really do not care one jot about your opinions, which are simply a peg on which to hang insults. Anyone who descends to that level instead of arguing on issues is not serious or informed.

Nor indeed do I give a damn about what happens to Elvaston Castle Country Park. Whatever small interest I may have had vanished days ago.

Buildings which are repaired and kept sound can continue into the future. What that future is can adapt over time. I live in the real world, the one where there is a goverment with no interest in historic buildings, where a Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport is only interested in casinos and the Olympics and raiding Heritage and other Lottery funding for that, on the grounds that the Olympics is heritage, where English Heritage has had its funding savaged and grant aid accordingly reduced (and many Grade I buidings at risk first in the queue) and local authorities are so strapped for cash they are closing libraries.

As for the rest - I'm just part of the volunteer fire brigade. Too many buildings under real threat to worry too much about the local community round Elvaston.

My local town council is busy burying the town green under a swathe of play equipment - probably illegal, but there are only so many hours in the day to fight. The land will still be there when the play equipment is vandalised and has to be removed.

Some of the local community supports this development.

And I'm wasting time here now when I have some very real and very urgent work to do, to try to do my small bit to prevent the demolition of a very large listed building for a tacky housing development. The local community actually supports the move. The local council voted for it. The local community is not always the best judge of what's right.

 

[Rocket]

Nemesis, the frustration that you express is felt by all of us who care about the plundering of our heritage, usually for commercial gain.

Why should it always be the case that everything has to have a commercial value? Have we all been hypnotised?

I believe that those who care are all on the same side.

The concept that despite record levels of taxation, there still isn’t the money to pay for that for which we are taxed to the hilt, is a difficult one to embrace.

When there is a genuine opportunity for someone to provide a commercial solution which is advantageous to a situation it should be encouraged. Otherwise, it shouldn’t be given houseroom. One such example of the latter is Dent-de-Lion Fort at Garlinge in Kent, where the building of houses up to and adjoining the Norman keep is hideous.