Electrical regulations or a con?

[Penners]

A friend has asked an electrician to quote for installing some new sockets and some in-ceiling downlighters. The chap came along and said he would quote specifically for that work. However, he pointed out that under the regulations he would be obliged to inspect the house's entire electrical system and if he found anything that does not comply with the latest regulations he would have to rectify this as well. So it was not possible for him to guarantee the extent of the costs.

Could any of you professional electrical engineers please clarify this for me? Is the guy telling the truth, or just leaving himself a handy loophole for adding a sizeable chunk to the eventual bill?

All comment and advice would be much appreciated.

 

[Andys]

Can't answer your precise question but I'm pretty sure you can't be strong-armed into meeting the latest wiring regulations if your system tests as electrically safe.

On the other hand our electrician was unequivocal about the need to change our bathroom lights before we electrocuted ourselves changing lightbulbs while having a bath. Like you do.

 

[paulc]

To a certain extent, he is leaving the door open for extra charges.

Any extensions or alterations to an electrical installation must meet the current standards, but there is no requirement to upgrade the rest of the system unless:
• The new work adversely affects the safety of the existing installation.
OR
• The state of the existing installation is such that the new work cannot be operated safely.

For minor modifications to an electrical installation (i.e. adding a fused spur or an extra light or two), there is no requirement to employ a registered electrician or notify building control. Although if you were to listen to the NICEIC, they would have you believe that any DIY electrical work is illegal.

 

[Flyfisher]

Can't answer your precise question but I'm pretty sure you can't be strong-armed into meeting the latest wiring regulations if your system tests as electrically safe.

That's my (non-professional) understanding as well. Being pedantic about it, there must be millions of properties that don't meet the very latest edition of the wiring regulations - if only because of the wiring colours!

We've had various bits of electrical work done, including a partial re-wire and a new consumer unit to which all the existing red/black wiring (plastic, but lots of it quite old as the wiring is stranded) was reconnected by our electrician without any qualms. He then tested everything and gave us copies of all the paperwork stating the whole system was ok on a circuit-by-circuit basis.

 

[Penners]

Many thanks for those observations, which I will pass on. I don't think there is any particular reason to suspect this electrician's motives, but I'm always just a bit wary of quotes that can be circumvented.

 

[MatthewC]

Can't answer your precise question but I'm pretty sure you can't be strong-armed into meeting the latest wiring regulations if your system tests as electrically safe.

On the other hand our electrician was unequivocal about the need to change our bathroom lights before we electrocuted ourselves changing lightbulbs while having a bath. Like you do.

Did you hear of the recent inquest on a 30 year old man who electrocuted hmself whilst having a bath, by holding the phone which was charging via an extension lead? Darwin again?

 

[malcolm]

I would suggest a second quote. As has been said there is no requirement for the whole house to be rewired if you just want to add a socket or two.

The tradesmen I most wish I had avoided were those who spouted regulations. On reflection I found them more thick than the norm. The good ones will help you meet any regulations in a sensible and predictable fashion.

 

[Flyfisher]

Did you hear of the recent inquest on a 30 year old man who electrocuted hmself whilst having a bath, by holding the phone which was charging via an extension lead? Darwin again?

Yes, I saw that story this week. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39307418. Desperately sad, more so because it was so incredibly stupid, though I suppose if you really don't understand the danger then you don't know.

However, I don't think the report was entirely clear about exactly what happened. I've read different reports where it was suggested the extension cable was resting on his chest ( :shock: ) or that the charger fell into the water but also that it was only the iPhone that fell into the water . . . which might reasonably not be expected to be such a risk as the phone side of the charger should be a safe low voltage. The other thing I was a bit surprised about was the report that the coroner has written to Apple to highlight the danger . . . but why would he do that if the death was caused by a mains cable or the charger falling into the water? That could hardly be Apple's fault. But if it was just the iPhone in the water then it would imply that the low voltage side of the charger caused the electrocution, which is far more worrying. Perhaps the charger was faulty?

Still a tragedy though.

 

[Keith Bowman]

Can't answer your precise question but I'm pretty sure you can't be strong-armed into meeting the latest wiring regulations if your system tests as electrically safe.

On the other hand our electrician was unequivocal about the need to change our bathroom lights before we electrocuted ourselves changing lightbulbs while having a bath. Like you do.

Did you hear of the recent inquest on a 30 year old man who electrocuted hmself whilst having a bath, by holding the phone which was charging via an extension lead? Darwin again?

I apologise for sounding callous, but my understanding is that Darwin awards can only be given to those who,through stupidity, take themselves out of the gene pool before having reproduced. At the age of thirty he was quite likely to passed on his genes.

 

[LadyArowana]

Everything is potentially dangerous http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/bradford-man-killed-by-clothes-horse-1-3758137

 

[Hobden]

The tradesmen I most wish I had avoided were those who spouted regulations. On reflection I found them more thick than the norm. The good ones will help you meet any regulations in a sensible and predictable fashion.

The electrician who rewired my house seven years ago said that the regulations allowed him to "take a view". He could rate things as non-standard, but safe. What he couldn't do was leave anything that he considered unsafe.

And in passing, our seven-year-old rewire no longer meets current regualtions. Why? Because an as-per-standard (new) plastic fuse-box was installed (helps cut the risk of electrocution at the fusebox I guess), but two or three years ago they changed the regs and now fuseboxes have to be metal (because, another electrician told me, there'd been a few fusebox fires and the plastic burnt rather too well). Doubltess it'll all change again in a few years time and we'll have to have papier-mache fuseboxes - all makes work for the can't-do's ...

 

[Flyfisher]

Yes, our kitchen extension was only just completed before that change in the regulations, so we have an installation only a few years old that doesn't meet the latest regulations. :roll:

 

[DavidB]

Penners, I got a new kitchen installed and had to upgrade the distribution unit, increase the size of the tails, run a thicker wire into the kitchen - all because I was sticking in an induction oven, I even had to upgrade the house main fuse!
Anyway, the electrician who was contracted with via the kitchen company did the quote. He tells me that once he starts messing around with the electrics it is now his responsibility - so he has to test and fix everything afterwards. He found a problem with the wiring to our boiler. He found approx. 50% of our wall sockets were not earthed properly and some of the lights had similar minor wiring problems. Lastly he identified a cable that was damaged internally - probably due to placement near the flue and heat damage. He fixed all of these problems within the quoted price - the work did not take him a lot of extra time and he only had to run a bit of extra cabling to replace the small section of damaged cabling. I felt that (and saw that) everything was checked and tested thoroughly. I did show my appreciation for what I felt was him going the extra mile and keeping to the original quote.

So I wouldn't be worried about the quote from the electrician - as in my experience there are often little problems worth getting sorted out whilst the electrician is testing the whole system.

 

[Penners]

David, thank you for those thoughts, and I can see that - in your case - the electrician was conscientious and fair in his pricing. I suppose it's a reflection of my own past experiences that I am something of a cynic in such matters.

As a matter of interest, what was the electrical rating of your new induction hob?

 

[DavidB]

The oven needed a 50 Amp breaker. Which I thought was a lot.

 

[Owain]

The oven needed a 50 Amp breaker. Which I thought was a lot.

It is rather. Most domestic pottery kilns would run on less!

 

[steveb]

Our 90cm rangemaster is I believe rated at 82 amps!

Not sure what size breaker it's on.. I guess 'diversity' may be allowed into it. Unlikely to be using 5 hobs, 2 ovens and a grill simultaneously

 

[Flyfisher]

As a matter of interest, what was the electrical rating of your new induction hob?

We have an induction hob with four 'cooking zones' each rated at 3200W, so 12.8kW or about 53 amps. However, it also has a 'power management' function that " . . . Divides the power between two cooking zones in a pair. The power function increases the power to the maximum level for one cooking zone in the pair. The power in the second cooking zone automatically decreases. The heat setting display for the reduced zone changes between two levels".

It all sounds very clever though I can't say we've ever noticed it in practice but presumably it works because the hob itself is connected to a separate circuit fed from a 32A MCB in the consumer unit and has never tripped.

 

[CliffordPope]

I apologise for sounding callous, but my understanding is that Darwin awards can only be given to those who,through stupidity, take themselves out of the gene pool before having reproduced. At the age of thirty he was quite likely to passed on his genes.

No, if he was the family breadwinner and his family died of starvation then his genes would still be removed from the gene pool.

 

[paulc]

It all sounds very clever though I can't say we've ever noticed it in practice but presumably it works because the hob itself is connected to a separate circuit fed from a 32A MCB in the consumer unit and has never tripped.

A 32A type B MCB will trip at between 3 to 5 times the rated current. At twice the rated current, it may take up to an hour before it trips out. There are charts available from the MCB manufacturers showing the trip currents against time - A slightly oversimplified set of curves - documents.rs-components.com/EITC/UK/ABB/MCB_Characteristics.pdf