Duplex casement windows vs 'traditional'?

[Penners]

The parrot looks none too happy about it.

 

[MdB]

The parrot looks none too happy about it.

I think that would be the glitter ball and not the window.

(Thanks for the pic TiG, maybe when we find some money from somewhere)

 

[Philip_I]

Ian - just in the process of replacing some single glazed windows (probably) and seen in a few places people saying that purely based on cost vs reduction in energy usage you will never be able to justify installing replacing single glazed with double glazed windows. Not sure I totally agree as so many variables as you say including the price of fuel which in 10-20 years times might be really sky high. That said reduced energy usage is not the only issue. I've got mostly ugly 1970's casement windows some with very ugly secondary glazing and want instead a more traditional looking flush casement design. Also I've got a noise issue on two sides of the house from a nearby road and double glazing will make a huge difference.

On the solild bar double glazing vs "stuck-on" debate I've got some double glazed windows with solid bars and lots of small panes and I must say the performance of them doesn't seem great. Much more noisy and I think less warm than single glazed with big secondary glazing panes in the room next door. Also got panes starting to fail so the issue of replacing one by one arising. The extra thick bars thoughs don't look too bad. In fact I sort of like them compared to some of the thin ones. For the "stick-on" bars the good quality timber windows are actually not stick on but mitred on with interbars between the glazing. Some of them look shocking but some don't look too bad.

Got these people coming round this week to show me some samples.

http://www.timberwindows.com/galleries/flush-casement-window-installations-gallery/

Rough initial quote installed is £1,200 per window although doubtless will be able to get them down lower especially in current climate. Interested if anybody has any experience of them.

 

[Philip_I]

Ian - just in the process of replacing some single glazed windows (probably) and seen in a few places people saying that purely based on cost vs reduction in energy usage you will never be able to justify installing replacing single glazed with double glazed windows. Not sure I totally agree as so many variables as you say including the price of fuel which in 10-20 years times might be really sky high. That said reduced energy usage is not the only issue. I've got mostly ugly 1970's casement windows some with very ugly secondary glazing and want instead a more traditional looking flush casement design. Also I've got a noise issue on two sides of the house from a nearby road and double glazing will make a huge difference.

On the solild bar double glazing vs "stuck-on" debate I've got some double glazed windows with solid bars and lots of small panes and I must say the performance of them doesn't seem great. Much more noisy and I think less warm than single glazed with big secondary glazing panes in the room next door. Also got panes starting to fail so the issue of replacing one by one arising. The extra thick bars thoughs don't look too bad. In fact I sort of like them compared to some of the thin ones. For the "stick-on" bars the good quality timber windows are actually not stick on but mitred on with interbars between the glazing. Some of them look shocking but some don't look too bad.

Got these people coming round this week to show me some samples.

http://www.timberwindows.com/galleries/flush-casement-window-installations-gallery/



Rough initial quote installed is £1,200 per window although doubtless will be able to get them down lower especially in current climate. Interested if anybody has any experience of them.

 

[Taff in Glaws]

Cor blimey 1200 beer tokens (allright 400 these days!) for each window. What size are they?

I paid £350 for the unit pictured above, fair enough it's not a top spec oak unit but it's same spec as what it replaced. I got several quotes off local joiners that ranged from £300 to £1100 with the same spec. I realise cheapest aint always the best but was able to view some of the joiners work in his workshop and he was the only chap that listened to what we wanted.

 

[Nemesis]

Re noise reduction - secondary glazing with a wide gap is far better than dg.

 

[Penners]

1200 beer tokens

First time I've encountered the pint being used as a unit of currency.

 

[Philip_I]

Taff - that is the ballpark average per window for doing a house (before negotiation of course) including fitting, paint finish, high quality ironmongery etc. Got them coming around today to measure and give proper quote. We'll see what it ends up. Daresay there will be cheaper ways to do it with smaller firms especially if happy to arrange fitting and painting separately but got so many things to do with new house there is a limit as to what I what to arrange or do myself.

 

[Philip_I]

Nemesis - didn't realise that secondary was better than dg for noise reduction. Shame they look so ugly especially with a wide gap (at least the ones I have right now on couple of windows do) and aren't particularly practical. Not going to change the one's I've got but think will go the dg route for new windows.

 

[Nemesis]

Have a look at Storm which are about the neatest I think.

It was Storm which EWH worked with on the 'Energy Heritage' investigations, these are ongoing.

http://www.ewht.org.uk/Energy-Heritage-Project.aspx


Historic Scotland has produced a report also.

http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/thermal-windows.pdf

So much depends on window size.

I know that once the sun goes down we can feel the temperature drop (in cold weather!) and then close the shutters which does make a difference.

 

[Penners]

didn't realise that secondary was better than dg for noise reduction.

It is, so long as both windows are pretty draught-proof. And it works best if the space between the two windows is lined on all four surfaces - sides, top and bottom - with acoustic insulation material.

 

[Nemesis]

In fact decent draughtproofing can have a good effect on noise reduction also. DG alone isn't really the answer.

 

[Penners]

once the sun goes down we can feel the temperature drop

Sun? So presumably you're not referring to the period of perpetual darkness between November and March, up there near the Arctic Circle.

 

[Philip_I]

Well had an installer for Timberwindows.com around the other day and just got the quote back.

Have to say the windows are very impressive. They really look nice and it is almost impossible to tell that the glazing is one big panel. World apart from some of the cheaper windows with stuck on glazing bars. With these the surface bars are mitred to the frame and the interbars between the panes blend almost perfectly. Even close up very hard to tell that not individual glazing unless you really know what you are looking for. U value is 1.1 so window would be more thermally efficient than my walls.

However, the cost is outrageous. Initial ball park figure quoted by telephone was that a normal house works at around £1,200 per window fully installed. Expensive but thought would end up less. First quote back works out at more than £1,800 per window reduced to £1,600 if order by mid December. :shock: Doubtless taking the piss and will negotiate but will tell them to bugger off. Got a rough quote from another company for something very similar albeit with slightly higher U value that works out at just over £1,000 per window before negotiation. However, now had an architect around today and not sure what style of windows to get now...... :?

 

[CHRIS]

With regard to the noise issue etc with DG v Secondary glazing we live right on the flight path to the NE of Stansted where the planes are pretty low and since getting rid of the 1960s windows that had secondary glazing we have noticed a marked improvement in the sound proofing - even as much as not even hearing them at all whilst watching tv now.

I would say it is more to do with the draught proofing than the thickness of the glass etc but doing a good job of the fitting is crucial and getting a good joint around the window up to the render really helps with this(this is where doing it yourself is better as you can do a good job rather than some bloke just slapping up some filler)

 

[Penners]

Philip_I - I presume you know that we have a (reasonably) tame window-maker as a regular PPUK contributor?

Click here.

 

[OLDCOLLIER]

My earlier reference to the use of the stuck on 'astragal'/'astragel' (in 40 years in the business I have seen it spelt both ways) bars was to vertical sliding sash windows. Whilst you MIGHT get the depth to joint the fixed rebated bar into position, you won't get the required depth of rebate on a such a window to allow a GLAZING BEAD to be jointed into place because there wouldn't be one, either side of the unit - think about it. The particular job referred to was done under Conservation and the stuck on bars used because the CO and the cusomer wanted the thinner aspect, even though the layout was 2 over 2 and would have looked fine with the thicker bar to take individual units. It's a question of personal taste, as the tradesman all you can do is advise and show examples of your previous work, it's then down to the CO and the customer.

As to the astrigal bars…The stuck on bars can work and some double-sided tapes are virtually immovable, especially if applied with a gentle heat. But remember that sliding sashes are opened by using the glazing bars and so the customer must be instructed always to use the sash lifting handles on the bottom sash, and I always provide a machined short length of hardwood to put downward pressure on the meeting rail of the top sash to open it, and a longer section of similar to apply pressure to the top rail to close it. A pain in the proverbial, but if discussed at the planning stage then I’ve yet to have anyone raise objections to this procedure if it means they get what they want. And window cleaners and decorators will always use sash handles on the underside of the top sash meeting rail if they’re fitted.

 

[Nemesis]

I uae the top and bottom rails on sashes to open. Never had a problem.

Sometimes it's not down to personal taste, it's down to history and what is common in the area.

 

[OLDCOLLIER]

Always assuming you're replacing like for like and there is some homogeneity in the neighbouring fenestration(s), otherwise it is down to the personal taste of the customer (having been shown illustrations of typical applications) and the opinion of the Conservation Officer. In the particular application referred to it was a case of replacing upvc top hungs with wooden vertical sliding sashes which (because all the reveals had been bricked up, plastered and the seven rooms decorated, would have caused chaos to the routine of the household) ran on spiral balances to maintain a thin section of 25mm within the existing reveal to give the impression from the outside of a recessed box frame. I would personally have preferred to see that much grant aid go towards the reinstatement of the original reveals and the fitting of full, corded box sashes, but as I’m not on a salary I wasn’t about to turn down eleven and a half grand’s worth of work if the Conservation Officer was happy.

 

[Nemesis]

But you know - as you are clearly so expert, and feel you have so much to offer the wider conservation movement, why not go in for one of those salaried jobs? Think how your expertise could be utilised!