Michelle73
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Oh and we also found in the ceiling an old abandoned bee hive!
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Matt Green
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OK, so the water isn't coming in throughthe roof light, is it the bay roof or the downpipe from the bay that's causing the problem?
It doesn't seem to have caused much damage to the skirting board.
M.
It doesn't seem to have caused much damage to the skirting board.
M.
Michelle73
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Hi Matt
Am still having the rooflight removed, the leak will eventually cause some similar rot so its not worth waiting for!
We think the cause of the rot is : the kitchen window, its lack of a protruding sill, the interior concrete plaster, the exterior concrete render, the external weatherproof masonry paint....
We imagine the rain has hit the window and since theres no sill, the rain has rotted through the wood, into the masory which then couldn't evaporate because of the internal and external concrete etc...so has worked its way horizontally into next door and then the mushroom has formed behind the plaster and down towards the floor behind the skirting boards.
The Flat roof of the Bay window in same room seems to have suffered seperatley and we found those lovely big white balls of mushroomy fungus stuff sitting on the underside of the roof. It had been cladded in T&G but we'd not noticed any leaks.
Our plan of attack now is :
Remove leaking rooflight, refelt & replace damaged joists in ceiling etc
Remove Kitchen window and replace with new wooden frame which will be isolated from masonry.
Install a Concrete window Sill for kitchen window to help rainwater fall away from the wall.
Remove internal concrete plaster from masonry under the kitchen window so at least one side of the wall can dry out - will later dryline and plaster skim.
Remove plaster from wall in room adjoining kitchen & get rid of red mushroom and any wet timber
Repair/replace the roof of the Bay window and wonder how we can monitor any further ingress if we hadn't spotted leaks this time round...
On a happier note, with the celing gone we can now say with some confidence that the flat roof is dry, rot free and good for another decade or so!
Am still having the rooflight removed, the leak will eventually cause some similar rot so its not worth waiting for!
We think the cause of the rot is : the kitchen window, its lack of a protruding sill, the interior concrete plaster, the exterior concrete render, the external weatherproof masonry paint....
We imagine the rain has hit the window and since theres no sill, the rain has rotted through the wood, into the masory which then couldn't evaporate because of the internal and external concrete etc...so has worked its way horizontally into next door and then the mushroom has formed behind the plaster and down towards the floor behind the skirting boards.
The Flat roof of the Bay window in same room seems to have suffered seperatley and we found those lovely big white balls of mushroomy fungus stuff sitting on the underside of the roof. It had been cladded in T&G but we'd not noticed any leaks.
Our plan of attack now is :
Remove leaking rooflight, refelt & replace damaged joists in ceiling etc
Remove Kitchen window and replace with new wooden frame which will be isolated from masonry.
Install a Concrete window Sill for kitchen window to help rainwater fall away from the wall.
Remove internal concrete plaster from masonry under the kitchen window so at least one side of the wall can dry out - will later dryline and plaster skim.
Remove plaster from wall in room adjoining kitchen & get rid of red mushroom and any wet timber
Repair/replace the roof of the Bay window and wonder how we can monitor any further ingress if we hadn't spotted leaks this time round...
On a happier note, with the celing gone we can now say with some confidence that the flat roof is dry, rot free and good for another decade or so!
Matt Green
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I hope the floor in the bay is solid.
Michelle73
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Matt Green said:
As in solid concrete or not rotten?
We took the carpet up and the floorboards beneath the bay. Boards currently look ok and don't show any outward signs of rot or dampness.
Theres an airbrick in the bay wall and air flow beneath the floor seems good.
Should I be on the look out for anything in particular Matt?
JoceAndChris
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Jump up and down on the spot with little girl and duck in your arms for extra weight and see what happens?
I decided, long ago, that a floorboard and supporting joist was rotten when , and only when, my foot went through.
I decided, long ago, that a floorboard and supporting joist was rotten when , and only when, my foot went through.
Michelle73
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Matt,
Have been searching web for images to identify the fungus growing in the bay window area. Just found identical pictures which show it to be Lycoperdon pyriforme. We have several of them which are white so therefore hopefully - newish growths and a couple of fossilised / husk looking ones.
Do you have any particular advice about these?
Have been searching web for images to identify the fungus growing in the bay window area. Just found identical pictures which show it to be Lycoperdon pyriforme. We have several of them which are white so therefore hopefully - newish growths and a couple of fossilised / husk looking ones.
Do you have any particular advice about these?
Matt Green
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Puffballs? Nothing to worry about there, they only grow on joinery when there's loads and loads of water around.
The floor construction is a bit painful. If dry rot is in the skirting boards you really need to thoroughly check the joists, especially where they bear into teh wall (if they do- if they are on a sleeper before the wall then make sure they are clean and isolated from the bay wall). I would leave a few boards loose so you can check periodically. Ensure the external ground levels are 6" below the floor height too.
Dry rot isn't a catastrophe by any means, but when it grows down to sub-floor level it can be annoyingly difficult to get rid of. You can't completely remove the ground water and neither can you remove all the timber.
Do you think you've found all the growth now?
The floor construction is a bit painful. If dry rot is in the skirting boards you really need to thoroughly check the joists, especially where they bear into teh wall (if they do- if they are on a sleeper before the wall then make sure they are clean and isolated from the bay wall). I would leave a few boards loose so you can check periodically. Ensure the external ground levels are 6" below the floor height too.
Dry rot isn't a catastrophe by any means, but when it grows down to sub-floor level it can be annoyingly difficult to get rid of. You can't completely remove the ground water and neither can you remove all the timber.
Do you think you've found all the growth now?
Michelle73
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I hope we've found all of the rot but I suspect not. I know there will be more of the smelly mushroom behind the plaster and up the wall but we're knocking the internal plaster off next weekend which should see the end of that particular outbreak.
I'm really concerned that the leak in the roof of the Bay window wasn't noticeable to us at all. So much so that we're thinking of having the Bay taken out and replaced with French doors. Its for peace of mind as much as anything else. Despite feeling like we have this in perspective and under control during the daytime, I've still woken up in a cold sweat every night since finding the rot!
The mushroom on the skirting is on the wall right next to the bay and I think the only way to know if its crept that far along is to start removing parts of it anyway.
Our garden is much higher than the ground level of the house, Up 3 steps before we're onto the grass. Between the house and the garden is an area which is wall to wall concrete. Should we consider breaking this up and replacing it with something else? Wondering if it might also be contributing to the problem of water soaking into the wall?
I'm really concerned that the leak in the roof of the Bay window wasn't noticeable to us at all. So much so that we're thinking of having the Bay taken out and replaced with French doors. Its for peace of mind as much as anything else. Despite feeling like we have this in perspective and under control during the daytime, I've still woken up in a cold sweat every night since finding the rot!
The mushroom on the skirting is on the wall right next to the bay and I think the only way to know if its crept that far along is to start removing parts of it anyway.
Our garden is much higher than the ground level of the house, Up 3 steps before we're onto the grass. Between the house and the garden is an area which is wall to wall concrete. Should we consider breaking this up and replacing it with something else? Wondering if it might also be contributing to the problem of water soaking into the wall?
Matt Green
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Michelle73 said:
The difference across the bay wall is the important bit. What is the difference in height between the timber floor and the level of the concrete on the other side of the bay wall. It would be good to know if the joist ends run into bay walls too, or if they stop short.
There's quite a few variables in this now and it's getting tougher and tougher to give useful advice without seeing it. Sorry.
M.
Michelle73
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The man of the house is back again this weekend so i'll get him under the floor to have a thorough look.
I know the airbrick that I can see on the outside is below the floorboard level but I think this may only be by a fraction.
I went out shopping this morning but have had much more fun knocking off damp cement plaster from the internal kitchen wall this afternoon.
Looking forward to breaking up concrete patio this weekend, demolition derby party !
Michelle73
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Progress report :
Had a very lovely day knocking out extremely rotten kitchen window frame with my Dad.
A big concrete windowsill has now been installed with dpc to isolate it from infected masonry.
Joiner and roofer coming on Tuesday to remove rooflight, replace rotten roof joist and repair flat roof.
Stripped back plaster & more t&g in room adjoining kitchen and dry rot has 'just' reached the bay window though underfloor joists seem ok.
Cleared out lots of debris from floor void and shook head in dismay at air brick which we can now see is at floorboard level and not below.
Looking forward to next weekend when we'll be hiring a big concrete breaker upper thingy to start lowering the outside ground level. Any volunteers with wheel barrows?!!
Still thinking that we'll get the whole bay window removed and replace with French doors, would welcome any advice/experiences of french doors or alternatives.
Happy weekend everyone x
Had a very lovely day knocking out extremely rotten kitchen window frame with my Dad.
A big concrete windowsill has now been installed with dpc to isolate it from infected masonry.
Joiner and roofer coming on Tuesday to remove rooflight, replace rotten roof joist and repair flat roof.
Stripped back plaster & more t&g in room adjoining kitchen and dry rot has 'just' reached the bay window though underfloor joists seem ok.
Cleared out lots of debris from floor void and shook head in dismay at air brick which we can now see is at floorboard level and not below.
Looking forward to next weekend when we'll be hiring a big concrete breaker upper thingy to start lowering the outside ground level. Any volunteers with wheel barrows?!!
Still thinking that we'll get the whole bay window removed and replace with French doors, would welcome any advice/experiences of french doors or alternatives.
Happy weekend everyone x
What fun you'll have !!
Our son's house suffered from layers of concrete beside the back extension that housed the (damp) kitchen and breakfast room.
He and his friends had great fun breaking it up with sledgehammers and crowbars. And slightly less fun carting it all through the (terrace) house in rubble sacks.
Son's cup really ran over, however, when they encountered the layer that resisted all their testosterone-fuelled efforts and he had an excuse to hire a pneumatic drill to finish the job.
Flyfisher
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When lifting concrete slabs, consider buying a 'landscaping tool' (I think they're called); basically a long steel rod with a point at one end and a 'chisel' at the other. I bought mine at a fencing supplier as they are often used for loosening the soil or breaking through tarmac when digging post holes. The length of the rod provides an amazing amount of leverage, making it relatively easy to lift large slabs of concrete off the ground. Large crowbars can also be useful. When raised in this way (and chocked with a brick if necessary) a sledgehammer can then be used to break the slab into smaller lumps that can be hand-lifted and carried away.
Remember that concrete is relatively weak in tension so the trick is to try to break it apart from the edges. Simply bashing it with a big hammer while still sitting soundly on firm ground is just a recipe for a strenuous workout with little harm to the concrete. But even lifting it a few inches will make it fairly easy to break, unless it's steel-reinforced or more than, say, 4-inches thick.
You may find you don't actually need an expensive 'breaker' at all.
Remember that concrete is relatively weak in tension so the trick is to try to break it apart from the edges. Simply bashing it with a big hammer while still sitting soundly on firm ground is just a recipe for a strenuous workout with little harm to the concrete. But even lifting it a few inches will make it fairly easy to break, unless it's steel-reinforced or more than, say, 4-inches thick.
You may find you don't actually need an expensive 'breaker' at all.
Michelle73
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Thanks Moo & FF, Concrete breaker up thingy is called a Kango hammer or something like that. Probably about £25 for a day. Will remember the tips about breaking it up into smaller pieces. Anything that will minimise hand blisters is a blessing!
Am really looking forward to the rooflight being stripped out tomorrow. I was up at 4am this morning catching rainwater dripping onto floorboards beneath.
Have these nightmares about the little spores just sitting there waiting for each drip drip drip !
Feel very very guilty though that the kitchen window is going to be replaced with plastic
My dad is also renovating a cottage and has removed a window which matches my dimensions so I guess we're recycling and can replace with timber later when I have some money...still feel very bad though.
Also the idea we had about replacing the bay window with french doors...well he has pre-loved plastic french doors which will be passed onto me too
Am I going to be shot to pieces now? I do love timber honest....
Am really looking forward to the rooflight being stripped out tomorrow. I was up at 4am this morning catching rainwater dripping onto floorboards beneath.
Have these nightmares about the little spores just sitting there waiting for each drip drip drip !
Feel very very guilty though that the kitchen window is going to be replaced with plastic
My dad is also renovating a cottage and has removed a window which matches my dimensions so I guess we're recycling and can replace with timber later when I have some money...still feel very bad though.Also the idea we had about replacing the bay window with french doors...well he has pre-loved plastic french doors which will be passed onto me too
Am I going to be shot to pieces now? I do love timber honest....
We took our plastic windows out during our rebuild and unfortunately had to put them back in again due to the expense of replacing them. It is unfortunate, but not the end of the world and recycling is arguably the best solution so don't worry about it.Michelle73 said:Feel very very guilty though that the kitchen window is going to be replaced with plastic
Matt Green
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Michelle73 said:
Is it entirely decayed beyond repair? If only one side is affected or it's possible to repair it, keep hold of it and get it repaired at a leter date then switch it back in.
If it's only fit for the skip there's not much of a problem.
M.
-who has plastic windows that work unfortunately. But as soon as they stop working....
Michelle73
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I wish It weren't raining right now or i would go out to the dump and take a photo of the frame which we removed.....heres one reason why theres a rot problem....
Its a handmade frame in the sense that a small child made it one day by bashing pieces of wood into a square shape. Square shape didn't fit the rectangular hole in wall so a piece of aliminium sheet was nailed into masonry to cover up the gap. Then small child thought he would turn it into double glazed window by placing a sheet of glass to outside frame and gently 'nailed' it to the frame. Surprisingly we never suffered condensation or misting between the panes of glass but I suppose the ventiliation was pretty good!!
Its a handmade frame in the sense that a small child made it one day by bashing pieces of wood into a square shape. Square shape didn't fit the rectangular hole in wall so a piece of aliminium sheet was nailed into masonry to cover up the gap. Then small child thought he would turn it into double glazed window by placing a sheet of glass to outside frame and gently 'nailed' it to the frame. Surprisingly we never suffered condensation or misting between the panes of glass but I suppose the ventiliation was pretty good!!
Michelle73
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Rotten skylight now removed, rotten ceiling joist left in situ as it still had sufficient strength left to do its job though was given a quick chemical treatment just in case... Flat roof fixed up nicely just in time for a downpour not half an hour later!
Was very happy with the joiners and roofer though left speechless when the joiner asked if I'd thought about putting down 'a nice laminate' in my hallway to cover up the wooden floor :shock:
Was very happy with the joiners and roofer though left speechless when the joiner asked if I'd thought about putting down 'a nice laminate' in my hallway to cover up the wooden floor :shock:
JoceAndChris
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OUCH!!! Don't you feel that when they say things like that you suddenly question their fitness to be in your house? I'd only have people working here who'd swoon over every bit of it as I do- but then that's not always realistic I know!
Well done for getting all this sorted though - it must be a good feeling - and what's important is them safeguarding your house not their taste in floors!
Well done for getting all this sorted though - it must be a good feeling - and what's important is them safeguarding your house not their taste in floors!