Drawings for LBC

[JoceAndChris]

Please will someone explain what happens when you apply for LBC for an extension?

Just read elsewhere that you have to submit drawings, and these drawings can invlove costs of up to £2000, exclusive of any building work. :shock:

Do you have to submit drawings for Planning Permission? Can they be DIY drawings? Or do they have to come from someone like an architect or builder?

What else happens when you apply for LBC or Planning Permission? What are the differences between the processes?

 

[robgil]

i was told to submit sketches of what i planned to do first.

 

[Nigel Watts]

I suggest you speak to your local Conservation Office, but I would be surprised if they did not need drawings and plans for an extension.

I have submitted two successful LBCs with DIY drawings - one for work on internal ornamental plaster work and another for the reinstatement of the iron railings and gate at the front of the house (I am Grade II). They were both hand drawn, although the former was assisted by a photocopying machine. The CO was nice enough complimented me on my railings drawing, saying that a professional would not have taken so much trouble.

 

[Stephen]

No, due to recent changes the system is a 'one form' application system. This means that all applictions go through the same procedures. For an extension you will need LBC and planning anyway. You will need a set of drawings showing the existing and proposed. You will need a location plan and block plan showing various bits of information. You will also need a Design and Access Statement, which needs to set out the background of what you are doing and why, explaining the design process, etc, etc, etc.

It is now far more complex than previously and does indeed involve quite a lot of work. If you can draw accurately to scale and prepare all the documents you do not need any professional help, but most people could not do this without experience and certain skills. The web site www.planningportal.gov.uk is the best place to get general information and there is a lot of detail there as well. It also allows online applications provided all the documentation is in an electronic format. For many applications it does involve more work but I think it could result in a generally better system with greater requirement on the applicant to have thought through what they are doing.

Some drawbacks are that for minor LBC matters the system is very excessive. Another problem is that whilst the government have set out a series of documents, etc that have to be included for every application there is a long list of additional documents that are optional - but it is for the local Council to decide whether you need to submit these optional ones as well (sometimes what they require seems unnecessary but it usually takes longer and costs more to argue than to submit them).

Once submitted the application is checked you may be asked to provide additional information clarify or amend things before the application gets through and is validated and put through to the officers. If you decide to withdraw it the Council still keep your fee!

I hope this very brief overview helps, but look at the web site mentioned above as it is useful in advising what is needed.

Stephen

 

[CHRIS]

Please will someone explain what happens when you apply for LBC for an extension?

Just read elsewhere that you have to submit drawings, and these drawings can invlove costs of up to £2000, exclusive of any building work. :shock:

Do you have to submit drawings for Planning Permission? Can they be DIY drawings? Or do they have to come from someone like an architect or builder?

What else happens when you apply for LBC or Planning Permission? What are the differences between the processes?

You have to remember that LBC is only part of an application, You also have to apply for planning permission and also building regulations approval, this was all covered a few weeks ago by Mr Hughes in a separate post (can not find it).

You have to supply various drawings including the OS mastermap exert and a design and access statement so it becomes quite involved. You could draw some sketches for a guide but when it comes to getting the project built you should get your builder a full set of plans so he can build and price the job correctly and save you time and heart ache in the long run due to miss understandings and work not priced correctly. I have just seen a case where a set of plans were approved by a council but the Architect forgot to include the guttering, it was not included in the planning procedure, the builder did not price for them and it was only when they started building they realised it was going to over sail the public right of way and so breaching the planning application.

It may sound a lot but £2000 is money well spent if you get a good set of detailed plans drawn up and the builder can get on and not have to keep hitting you with extras, why not get a local conservation Architect to do it for you as he will understand all the local problems that may be faced.

There is a good bit of help on our local councils website but you may have to contact yours for more info.

http://www.uttlesford.gov.uk/main.cfm?Type=PAGN&MenuId=456

 

[JoceAndChris]

I suggest you speak to your local Conservation Office, but I would be surprised if they did not need drawings and plans for an extension.
.

Interesting to hear about your projects Nigel! But there isn't a Conservation Office or Officer where I live, and my house isn't listed. I have contacted the Council, they're no help.

I want to get it listed, but Chris doesn't as he fears we'd be unable to go ahead with an extension without a great deal of cost and trouble. So we're arguing about that right now.

It's a little, single storey extension I'm thinking of, and basically to re-create a room that used to be there, that now is half a room with a perspex roof and only accessible to cats. It will be tricky though, because it needs to have a hexagonal bay and a diminishing slate roof. And I can't work out how I could create interior access short of a staircase in the scullery, which would be wierd. Would you want to go to bed via the cellar and scullery? But the hosue is so strange anyway maybe that doesn't matter. There could be a big hole in the master bedroom wall into this new room, but then any future children would have to go to bed via their parents' bedroom, even more strange.

So I have some fundamental issues to sort out.

Stephen and Chris, that's extremely helpful, thanks so much. Wish I'd found the government website months ago- it's clarified so much.

 

[MdB]

The best place to find out what is required for planning applications is to look at other peoples. I think most councils have planning applications online so you can go and see what other people have done. I think you will find a big difference in quality between them, though I am not sure what difference this actually makes those that get passed or failed.

The drawings required for planning are nowhere near as detailed as those needed for building control or by your builder. These I did myself and in retrospect I think I was lucky to find a great builder who could fill in the gaps as I now know my drawings where not that great on the detail.

 

[Feltwell]

Joce, I suspect that listing your house would take a considerable period of time. Ask Graham Skier-Hughes, he's been involved in that process I believe.

As your house is not listed now, don't assume that you will automatically need planning permission - you can do "permitted development", i.e. build without PP, but the rules are a little complicated. They cover areas such as the size of extension you wish to build, where it is on your property, height of extension, has your house been extended before etc etc.

Have a look through the planning portal:-

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/

At my previous house it was a bit of a grey area as to if I needed PP for a garage, so I submitted a pre-application enquiry to my local authority - with some very basic plans that I drew up myself. They called me to say that no I didn't need PP, and were also quite happy to send me a letter to that effect for me to keep on file - no charge.

Check out your local authority's website, they will probably offer something similar.

There's nothing to stop you submitting your own plans even if PP is required, they have to be to a certain standard but not structurally detailed - it's the aesthetics, positioning and proportions they are judging, not how it will be built - that's Building Regs. I've just finished getting PP for my new garage, and am in the middle of submitting the Building Regs approval. I've had the plans drawn up for me, as well as letting the chap manage the application process, and to be honest I'm glad I did - my first application would have been refused otherwise, and this chap came up with good ideas for the design. All in it's cost me about £1500 but that includes all the local authority fees for both PP and full plans Building Regs approval.

Don't forget PP and Building Regs are seperate things, you may need both, one and not the other, or neither, depending on what you are building! For example my parents have added a utility room extension to their house last month, they needed building regs approval but not PP as it was a "permitted development"

If you need PP then preparing plans are a must. If you need Building Regs approval then you can go down the no plan inspection route - basically the inspector comes out at certain stages and confirms he is happy - problem is if he's not and you've built it you must take it down and re-do it to his satisfaction.

Or you can go down the Full Plans route whereby you submit full structural drawings in advance, which they then approve. They still inspect but that's to make sure you adhere to the plans you've done and for unknowns such as groud conditions for foundations. What they cannot do is then turn round and say that your design is in some way inadequate, as they've already passed it, unless your application was incomplete or mis-leading in some way.

 

[michael]

I did some drawings for a friend many years ago who wanted a garage extension and also some drawings for a project of my own when I wanted some skylights put in. These were both to cover planning permission and building regulations but I’m not sure if the requirements are different for LBC I was however a professional draughtsman at the time but not an architectural or structural draughtsman, more heating and ventilating which is a completely different kettle of fish.
Initially I was submitting drawings to the council with immense detail (something which my job demanded) which I later discovered was not necessary. I was soon to learn that the trick is to keep the drawings relatively simple i.e. key plan, plan and elevation and provide an extensive notes column down the side telling them everything they want to hear e.g. roof construction, roof pitch, building construction, window types and sizes, drainage etc quoting wherever possible standard regulations of the day. If you try to give too much detail in the actual drawing the council will be sending the drawings back time and again asking you to explain things. If it’s covered in the notes then it should pass through ok. It’s also easier to change the words of a note than it is to change intricate detail on a drawing.
Many of these guys who charge £2000 will come round, do a quick survey and a measure up, produce an over simplified drawing, probably on an A3 sheet and then cut and paste all the necessary rules and regs on the method of construction down the side. Time taken 1 or 2 days. £2000 thank you very much.
This can be done on the Kitchen table if you make yourself a parallel slide out of some wood (it has to run parallel with the side of the kitchen table), a decent scale rule and an adjustable set square. Your builder should be able to provide you with all the necessary notes and regs for your particular build which if your hand printing is ok you just copy chapter and verse down the side of the drawing. Give the drawing a title block in the bottom right hand corner with title and address, date, scale, and revision and then off to the printers for about half a dozen prints.
Unfortunately, I think the council in my area now demand CAD drawings, which makes things a lot more difficult if you’re not tooled up with a suitable computer package.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks for these very kind, detailed replies. It's really interesting to hear your personal stories. Most of you seem to be saying that professional drawings are more of a necessity than a luxury, but Michael, it's refreshing to hear a different side, from someone so experienced at it too. As I'd want to create an ensuite bathroom within the remodelled structure I suppose that should also be on the drawings, with details of plumbing, wiring and venting. I had imagined that Chris might do the plans as he's gifted at drawing, designs websites, and makes brilliant scale models on the computer when we're designing a room. But it seems it's a lot more complex than just marking to scale, and there could be things that are overlooked by the amateur.

It's all rather complex, but I'm so much more enlightened than I was earlier.

I've also found out that the fees are £150, thanks to that portal, whether it's an application for LBC or just Planning Permission for an unlisted building - so these rumours I keep hearing from builders of the crazy costs of getting LBC, and that I should make all changes to the building before I attempt to get it listed, aren't really founded in any kind of reality other than the reality that they need work now!!

Reading through the rules on that portal, I'd escape the necessity for PP were it not for the intended width "width no more than half the width of the building" it says. Meanies. You couldn't squeeze a bedroom and bathroom in that.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Reading through the rules on that portal, I'd escape the necessity for PP were it not for the intended width "width no more than half the width of the building" it says. Meanies. You couldn't squeeze a bedroom and bathroom in that.

Gosh, I've realised I don't know what I'm saying! What is width? Side to side or front to back? That means I have to identify the front of my house doesn't it? AAgh confused again.

 

[Feltwell]

Gosh, I've realised I don't know what I'm saying! What is width? Side to side or front to back? That means I have to identify the front of my house doesn't it? AAgh confused again.

That's where a pre-application enquiry can be useful, with a written reply. The rules assume lots of things, such as it being obvious what is the front of your house. In my case it was the slope that my house is built on that did it - ridge height facing the road was within the limits for permitted development, but ridge height at the back is 5' more and over the limit. Where do you measure it?? I ended up needing PP. If there is doubt expect your Council to take the pessimistic view, i.e. you need PP. For them that means their arse is covered for the future!

By the way, I thought LBC applications were free? They certainly were when I last did one, about 2 years ago, to change the interior layout of a Grade II listed Town Hall.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks again Feltwell!

LBC is maybe free for changing an interior layout, (sure someone will clarify) but for an extension it's not, according to the FAQ on that portal.

 

[Flyfisher]

My two LBC applications were free; mostly internal layout changes, some window and door changes. I've not yet tried to get LBC for an extension.

I mainly submitted photos instead of drawings, except for a floorplan sketch and a dimensioned window sketch. Neither were scale drawings. I guess the level of detail required depends on the extent of the proposed works. For the site plan and location plan I used Google Earth. The Design and Access statement was a complete waste of time, albeit necessary. I used the standard headings with a few lines describing why proposed works would have no significant impact. Of course, that would not apply in all cases though.

I had a very helpful CO, which helped enormously during planning the works, and the office staff were equally helpful when I was putting the application together. They even took the trouble to telephone me when the LBC was approved, prior to the formal paperwork being sent out.

 

[MdB]

For the site plan and location plan I used Google Earth.

Most councils have online mapping services which provide maps down to 1:1000 sort of resolution. The Cornish one is here: http://mapping.cornwall.gov.uk/website/ccmap/ Very useful for site and location plans and for seeing where footpaths, conservation areas etc are.

 

[Flyfisher]

An excellent resource, but I couldn't find a publically-accessible Norfolk equivalent, assuming there is one. I was told they could provide location and site maps at various scales for a fee, which is why I used Google Earth (miser that I am!)

 

[MdB]

An excellent resource, but I couldn't find a publically-accessible Norfolk equivalent,

http://www.whereilive.norfolk.gov.uk/LocalView/OnTheMap.aspx

 

[Pford75]

Joce,

In support of what others are saying, we have had drawings for 3 separate LBC applications (2 related to our flint wall and another around rebuilding a gatepost). Not only were they helpful in clarifying to our CO exactly what was proposed, he was able to describe his preferred changes with reference to the drawings a lot more easily. With the various elevations, size of wall etc. I don't think I could have done this myself.....the design & access statements are IMHO a complete waste of time.

As Chris notes, they also make the contracting process much more efficient. I suspect that a well-specified work schedule will result in lower quotes in general (since when there is uncertainty, builders will err on the side of over-quoting rather than under-quoting).

 

[Flyfisher]

What took you so long MdB? :wink:

Seriously though, I'm now suitably embarrassed. I definitely made enquiries about such a service when compiling my LBC applications and was only told about the fee-paying service (understandable, perhaps). But I also searched at the time and couldn't find anything; perhaps it's a new service (sounds like a desperate excuse - when in a hole stop digging!).

Anyway, duly bookmarked and many thanks.

 

[CHRIS]

You dont have to use the local councils OS Mastermap or Sitemap services they can be obtained from most good book shops such as Borders etc.

http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/products/osmastermap/whatisosmm.html.

http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/site/contact/maps-for-planning-applications.html

http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/partnerships/mdc/stockist.html

They can be issued as either a DWG (Autocad Drawing file) or DXF (Drawing exchange format) and you can down load the free viewer direct from the Autodesk (makers of Autocad) website at

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/mform?id=9078813&siteID=123112.

You can then print them via CutePDF or similar and then import too most Adobe product such as Photoshop etc

Dont forget that they need to be to scale and that 10000 A4 pieces of paper will drive you mad, consider the posibility of getting the drawings printed at A1
All drawings must have a scale marked on them including a scale bar:

1:50 or 1:100 - floor plans/elevations;
1:200 or 1:500 - site/block plan;
1:1250 or 1:2500 - location plan;
1:10 or 1:20 - details/sections (windows, doors etc.)