Dowelled floor

[Pford75]

We have sometime forum advisor Toby Newell currently staying with us as he is working on the floor in our Morning Room. He has been intrigued by the quality of the oak used for the skirting boards and door.....and furthermore, seems the whole floor is dowelled as well (with dowels or pegs between boards and holding them tight to prevent gaps. Looks to have been done rather expertly and as a result, very few gaps in a very old floor.

Anyone else have any experience/knowledge of this? Is it common?

Pics will follow soon when the floor is finished.

BTW - trust my luck.....scaffold finally erected today to enable me to start stripping paint off some otherwise inaccessible elevations......looks like a chilly weekend ahead

 

[middi]

I did come across some dowelled oak floor "planks" in a well " converted " 17th C building once.

The whole building was built of high quality carpentry . The whole building had been transformed into Georgian facades internally and externally, also done in high quality workmanship.

I posed the same question to myself at the time:- " was it really necessary to dowel horizontal oak floorboards". The only logical answer I could come up with was that the more "discerning" owners of the building would not put up with squeaky floors ( they were not T@G). I don't think it would have much effect on the expansion and contraction of the oak as far as gaps was concerned but definetely a good effect on the vertical "rubbing" of the planks- hence no squeaks.

Middi

 

[Pford75]

Thanks Middi. The floor in question is actually pine (although I am told it is very good quality pine). The skirting etc. Is all oak. The whole room seems to have very high quality carpentry...this is in the section of the house that predate the main building...so perhaps this is from an earlier period?

 

[Penners]

the whole floor is dowelled as well (with dowels or pegs between boards and holding them tight to prevent gaps.

Do you mean dowelled horizontally, board-edge to board-edge?

How interesting. I've never heard of this. How did Toby discover it? Have a few boards separated sufficiently to be able to see the dowels?

Presumably it was a technique that pre-dated tongue-and-groove mating of floorboards. How frequently are the dowels placed?

I'd love to see pictures.

 

[Pford75]

Exactly as you describe Penners. Toby was repairing a section which had suffered with worm in the past and noticed this when lifting the board. Difficult to be sure how they are spaced across the whole floor as we are not lifting boards unless we need to. On the section being repaired, they seem to run every foot or so. Will see what I can do on photos (from the sound of hammering all day, it may not be possible to get them though (the floor sounds securely fixed now :? )

I think you are right that this was an improvised t&g.....

 

[Penners]

But imagine the work! And the accuracy required in your dowel drillings! :shock:

 

[middi]

But imagine the work! And the accuracy required in your dowel drillings! :shock:

That is exactly what I thought Penners. ( " was it really necessary")

I mentioned it to J.Boutwood ( heritage architect) and he had never come across such a thing

It must have been a bespoke request from the owners to have such a thing done.

Middi

 

[Matt Green]

It's not bespoke, but certainly pretty rare. I came across dowelled floors in previous employment a handful of times in five years. They have some photos, I'm sure. I recall them being more common in oak, as noted by SPAB:

http://www.spab.org.uk/advice/technical-q-as/technical-q-a-33-timber-floorboards/

Rarer still were the horrific (to lift) metal tongued tongue and groove floors.

M.

 

[Pford75]

Found this interesting piece
http://chestofbooks.com/architecture/Modern-Buildings-Construction-V1/Wood-Floors-Part-3.html

It shows dowel joints being used on the 'small ends', but we have them on the 'long ends'

Floor is beginning to look great as well. Toby has also been giving some attention to the skirting, shutters and door. Pics will follow when complete

 

[Penners]

If, as Matt says, such floors were not bespoke, then that might make the idea of accurate dowel drillings rather more practicable. If they were done to a standard pitch in a workshop beforehand, then the job becomes more straightforward.

Does Toby think the dowels are glued in with fish glue?

 

[Pford75]

Haven't been able to take photos as the boards in question are all fixed now, what sort of glue is unclear. Seems though that these were unlikely to be a workshop job - they are varying sizes and lengths. The whole floor was also hidden nailed (unlike the rest of the house)...so seems to be either a different craftsman laying this floor or perhaps of a different age? A pic of the floor work in progress and the Oak door after a few coats of shellac..

 

[TomW]

If, as Matt says, such floors were not bespoke, then that might make the idea of accurate dowel drillings rather more practicable. If they were done to a standard pitch in a workshop beforehand, then the job becomes more straightforward.

Thinking about this, it would be quite easy to make a simple jig to do this onsite, no doubt time consuming, but not a problem with a bit of care.

 

[Penners]

I have no doubt that my carpentry skills fall into the bottom 25% or so of the genre, Tom, but have you ever tried to mate up two surfaces with multiple dowels? It's a pig! It only needs one hole to be a fraction out of pitch and the whole thing becomes a hell of a struggle.

Still, as I said, I'm probably speaking from an unskilled standpoint.

 

[Penners]

The whole floor was also hidden nailed

How have they done that? Secret nailing is usually done by driving nails diagonally through the tongue of a T&G board, but yours isn't T&G. Have they simply nailed diagonally through the edge of each board?

I reckon the carpenter who did that job originally was short of work. So he figured out a way to make the whole as difficult and long-winded as possible. :wink:

 

[Flyfisher]

I have no doubt that my carpentry skills fall into the bottom 25% or so of the genre, Tom, but have you ever tried to mate up two surfaces with multiple dowels? It's a pig! It only needs one hole to be a fraction out of pitch and the whole thing becomes a hell of a struggle.

Perhaps they just did the best they could and then planed down all the edges of the floorboards to be prefectly level, leaving future generations to marvel at the accuracy of their dowelling work. :wink:

 

[Penners]

Not sure I'm quite with you there, FF. It's not so much the flushness of the boards that I'm marvelling at, but the fact that every pair of those dowel holes in every edge-to-edge pair of boards must be in perfect alignment.

That's a considerable feat!

 

[Pford75]

How have they done that? Secret nailing is usually done by driving nails diagonally through the tongue of a T&G board, but yours isn't T&G. Have they simply nailed diagonally through the edge of each board?

All boards are nailed diagonally through the edge of the boards, but they have also done something different at the ends of the boards. Due to the room span, each 'run' has 2-3 lengths. Instead of butt-jointing each board, they have chiselled it back to create an overlap (and nailed through the lower board, which is then hidden by the lip on the board above).

Also worth noting that although pine, the boards are 1.5" thick.

 

[TomW]

Not sure I'm quite with you there, FF. It's not so much the flushness of the boards that I'm marvelling at, but the fact that every pair of those dowel holes in every edge-to-edge pair of boards must be in perfect alignment.

That's a considerable feat!

All you need is a long piece of wood (6-8ft is probably enough) that fits over the edge of the boards, with several holes drilled for your dowel positions.
Clamp the jig to the board, drill the holes, move the jig so that the first hole in the jig lines up with the last hole you drilled, using a bit of dowel to position it, drill the next set of holes, etc. Hey presto! perfect alignment. Can easily be made left and right handed.

 

[Flyfisher]

Not sure I'm quite with you there, FF. It's not so much the flushness of the boards that I'm marvelling at, but the fact that every pair of those dowel holes in every edge-to-edge pair of boards must be in perfect alignment.

That's a considerable feat!

I suppose it depends on the spacing of the dowels. My thinking was that if they are spaced at, say, 2-feet intervals, any misalignment could be taken up by bending the wood slightly. This would result in non-flush edges, which could be planed flush after fitting. Ah, except I've just realised that would only work for dowels out of vertical alignment and not for errors in dowel spacing.

OK, I'm warming to your suggestion of it being a considerable feat. :wink:
Or, possibly more likely, the use of a large jig as TomW has described.

Also, 1.5-inches seems quite thick for floorboards. Would that have any bearing on the contruction method?

Whatever the actual history, it certainly sounds like a very substantial bit of flooring.

 

[Penners]

All you need is a long piece of wood (6-8ft is probably enough) that fits over the edge of the boards, with several holes drilled for your dowel positions.
Clamp the jig to the board, drill the holes, move the jig so that the first hole in the jig lines up with the last hole you drilled, using a bit of dowel to position it, drill the next set of holes, etc. Hey presto! perfect alignment. Can easily be made left and right handed.

Hmmm - I admire your faith in a wooden jig!

In my experience, that idea would probably work fine for the first, maybe, 6 or 8 sets of holes. Then the jig would start to wear, its holes would enlarge and its accuracy would become progressively worse.