Domestic appliances

[Feltwell]

What if the waste pipe bursts?

Is that very likely to happen though, a non-pressurised pipe going? I can only think that a waste leak from there would either be because someone has disturbed the connection from the end of the hose to the house waste plumbing, or the dishwasher isn't properly supported and moves about enough for a waste pipe to wear through or crack at some point - more likely with a washing machine perhaps, especially if the waste pipe is not fitted or supported very well. Very difficult to design round that though, and you'd hope that in most cases you'd see the flood going acoss the kitchen floor, and unlike for the feed pipe it's self-limiting.

 

[fernicarry]

I did once have a washing machine leak where the water went around two sides of the kitchen behind the cupboards and then downstairs where it reappeared in the neighbour's hallway that wasn't even directly under the kitchen. Pretty sure this was on the waste side but it was a long time ago. For a while we thought it was external water ingress as nothing apparent inside my property until I eventually pulled out the washing machine. So yes, limited amount each cycle, but could be many cycles before detection.

Odd that dishwashers seem to come with the aquastop thingy already attached whereas washing machines tend not to come with any hoses. Or am I just not buying posh enough washing machines?

 

[Feltwell]

I think Aquastop is only on the posher machines. Our rather elderly Bosch washing machine hasn't got it.

 

[Feltwell]

Grrrrrr - it's the washing machine now, or rather I *think* it is. Something is making the RCCD on the consumer unit trip, and every time it's happened the washing machine has been running, and it's always been on the wash part of the cycle. "Aha" thinks Feltwell, "That's when it heats the water, I bet the element has gone, they can cause a short and hence the trip". Nothing else in the house has been "actively" working at the time the trip has happened.

Except - the element is still working and heating the water OK, and it doesn't always trip on every cycle. Oh how I love intermittent electrical faults. I've only ever come across elements either working or not working, anyone come across one that's moody and sometimes causes a short?

Motor brushes is perhaps the other contender but the machine always spins with no problem, so unlikely I think.

I think I'll be trying a new element, and if that doesn't work it'll be straight down to the AO Outlet store for a new machine, with 3 kids more than a few days without one is not an option! It has had a *lot* of hammer - it's about 12 years old and has supported a family of 5, with 3 kids all in washable nappies as babies, so it doesn't really owe us anything! I'll be buying another Bosch, put it that way - our previous machine, a Hotpoint, only lasted 18 months and needed lots of repairs in that time.

 

[Flyfisher]

The only thing I've heard about heating elements causing intermittent earth leakage problems is if water somehow gets inside the element. I'm not sure if element construction has changed these days, but the core heating element used to be encased in a sort of 'clay' material to insulate it from the outer metal casing. If the clay became damp/wet then current could leak to the outer casing, which of course should be earthed.

It might be worth changing the heating element as it shouldn't be too expensive. Does the machine have a 'cold wash' programme that doesn't use the heater at all? If so, that might be one way to isolate the problem, though being intermittent will certainly complicate things.

I can imagine your frustration; it's likely to be a simple problem but three children and a full time job means you're under a lot of time pressure.

Good luck!

 

[Zebra]

If it's an RCD that trips then it's earth leakage not overcurrent. It's likely to be a slight leak causing a path from a live part to earth, is it not?

 

[worms]

I’m no electrician but done my fair share of DIY appliance repairs.

My Bosch dishwasher is now 19 years old and only been dismantled a couple of times. The “clever” sensor in the undertray on mine is simply a piece of expanded polystyrene with a wire on top, which floats up and touches another wire, switching the whole machine off!

For the RCD tripping I would wonder about the armature windings on the motor. I once had a similar problem on a Zanussi washing machine and went to the extent of getting the motor rewound (back when this was “a thing” and an economically viable option). It fixed the problem, but the number of windings was a guess and the motor speeds were never right after it was done.

 

[Feltwell]

Thanks all for your thoughts. Alas FF running on a cold cycle won’t prove anything unless I run it repeatedly for a long time, as the intermittent nature of the fault means it will quite often go 4 or 5 washes with no problem.

I think I will try a new element, not hugely expensive at £30 and not hard to change. I think it has to be component rather than leakage related as it always trips during the samepart of the cycle - when the only things working are the heater, motor and controller. If it did turn out to be the motor or controller then they are just not worth replacing - the controller is over £300, I can buy a complete brand new Bosch machine from the AO outlet store for about £200 ! The motor is over £200.

Grrrr, I hate throwing things away because parts are stupidly expensive!

 

[Flyfisher]

Grrrr, I hate throwing things away because parts are stupidly expensive!

Me too, but it's a sign of the times. Crazy, though, when you could buy a new machine cheaper than a part :shock:

Meanwhile, I'm not best pleased with you bringing your RCD tripping virus on here. For the first time ever, our kitchen sockets RCD tripped out today - TWICE! :evil: Both within an hour of each other, first time was while the diswasher was running, second time was while the kettle was on. Have since used them both without tripping. Hmm.

 

[worms]

Grrrr, I hate throwing things away because parts are stupidly expensive!

Me too, but it's a sign of the times. Crazy, though, when you could buy a new machine cheaper than a part :shock:

Meanwhile, I'm not best pleased with you bringing your RCD tripping virus on here. For the first time ever, our kitchen sockets RCD tripped out today - TWICE! :evil: Both within an hour of each other, first time was while the diswasher was running, second time was while the kettle was on. Have since used them both without tripping. Hmm.

Look on the bright side...at this time of year it might be the woodworm reaching adulthood in the backboard of your meter panel and the beetles exploring your fuse board! It’s the one bit of wood in most houses that is really too much work for the treatment companies to deal with and invariably in a place where humidity levels are higher than ideal. Replacing a back-board requires the equivalent of a planetary alignment - two separate electricity companies, a private electrician and a joiner, then again in reverse order!

 

[Flyfisher]

Look on the bright side...at this time of year it might be the woodworm reaching adulthood in the backboard of your meter panel and the beetles exploring your fuse board! It’s the one bit of wood in most houses that is really too much work for the treatment companies to deal with and invariably in a place where humidity levels are higher than ideal. Replacing a back-board requires the equivalent of a planetary alignment - two separate electricity companies, a private electrician and a joiner, then again in reverse order!

Unlikely in this case. The kitchen extension is new (4ish years) with a 'boiler room' attached in which the new (and offending) CU is mounted on a new backboard and fed with a new 'sub-main' from another CU.

Anyway, my crossed fingers seem to be working as we've had no tripping out today (of the electrical sort anyway) despite full-on dishwasher, microwave and kettle usage all on that same circuit, so perhaps it was just one of those things.

Can RCD become temperamental in their old age? (Not that I'd regard 4/5 years as old).

 

[Feltwell]

Well, I finally got to replace the element today, having been away with work all week. The old one does look a bit burnt in one area, but reads the same resistance as the new one when tested with a multi-meter. It was well gunged in to the bottom of the drum - once I'd finally persuaded it out I had to vacuum the worst of the crud out of the bottom of the outer drum, through the hole where the element goes, and then poke around with a screwdriver to dislodge a lot more crud before vacuuming it out again.

I'm wondering if this could have been the problem - that's despite me running a boil wash with a sachet of anti-limescale powder once a month or so. We are in a very hard water area, and due to the quirks of our plumbing the washing machine runs off water direct from the mains rather than via our water softener. Modern cool washes are more prone to leaving gunk in the bottom of the machine than the hotter ones of old as well I believe.

It's running now with another boil wash to help dissolve any bits of gunk I've disturbed, and then we'll just have to keep trying it and perhaps declare cautiously all is well if it does 10 washes without tripping!

 

[Feltwell]

Without wishing to turn this into the "Period Domestic Appliances" forum, I had to strip the washing machine down again to clean everything out from the drum right through to the far side of the pump - disturbing components and dislodging crud meant the pump filter clogged - the amount of crud in there was ridiculous, even after a monthly empty-run boil wash with a special cleaning powder. All working well now though, thankfully.

 

[Flyfisher]

Fingers crossed things continue to work for a fair while after all that work!

Since my last post about our kitchen power tripping out twice it hasn't happened again although the dishwasher threw a hissy fit with another 'E15' code, meaning that leaking water had accumulated in the undertray. It was easy enough to mop out and return the machine to working order but I think it's a sign of a slow death - with which I'm not overly impressed given it's only about five years old. I'm also wondering if the water leak was the cause of the RCD tripping as well.

Roll on robotic staff to do all this stuff . . .

 

[Owain]

with which I'm not overly impressed given it's only about five years old. ... Roll on robotic staff to do all this stuff . . .

I was quite indignant to say goodbye to a fridge-freezer that didn't even last five years.

But I don't expect robotic staff to be any more reliable. They'd probably self-update and then refuse to wash all my existing clothes and make me buy a whole new compatible wardrobe.

 

[lordmulberry]

If I remember correctly Feltwell said that his Bosch washing m/c had lasted for 12 years. That seems excellent. We've never had a m/c last this long the last Bosch died at 6 years. Bosch dishwashers are not much better. We've switched to Miele as Which reckon these are the best and most reliable - we'll see! Our Hotpoint Iced Diamond Fridge/freezer has lasted 23 years and still going strong. Haven't replaced it as modern fridges don't work at under 10 degrees and our room off the Kitchen drops to zero in the winter. We'll have to put in some form of minimum heating if we want to replace with anything other than a Beko. Beko seem to be the only company that will will do minus numbers.

 

[noj]

We had to go for Beko for our replacement fridge freezer - strange how a relatively cheap make seems to be the only thing on the market that's happy at low temperatures, and some of the expensive brands seem to demand a crazy high ambient temp at all times.

The only other way round the problem would to have bought a separate fridge and freezer, two power demands but also two thermostats - but just didn't have the space. So far the Beko's been fine - once I raised the front a little so that the freezer door closes happily rather than looking closed but not actually being fully shut - an expensive couple of errors!

I spent ages online looking for thermostat alarms, automatic door closers etc before it finally dawned on me that just twiddling the feet a little let gravity fix the problem...

 

[Feltwell]

If I remember correctly Feltwell said that his Bosch washing m/c had lasted for 12 years. That seems excellent.

It is - that's 12 years of hard use as well, 3 kids who were all in washable nappies! In that time it's had 1 new set of motor brushes, and has just had it's second heater element and second thorough clean out, so that's pretty good I think - it doesn't owe me anything! I'd buy another Bosch without hesitation. The dryer, bought at the same time and also a Bosch, has never had anything done to it, although I think the main drum bearing is on the way out now.

The previous dishwasher was a Neff (same as Bosch, just a rebadge) and that lasted at least 12 years, it was here when we bought the house. Like FF I wouldn't be too impressed at only getting 5 years.

I bought a cheapie "Hisense" fridge freezer a while ago which seems quite happy in our utility room, which gets very cold - no idea if it's got 2 thermostats but the freezer has never defrosted!

Having spent 2 hours yesterday trying to get my printer/scanner to talk to the computer (they had a tiff - they'd been talking quite happily for 2 years up to that point) I don't look forward to the prospect of robotic staff!

 

[Flyfisher]

Our dishwasher is a Bosch, so I was not anticipating any problems at around five years. We're very pleased with it as far as cleaning is concerned and it is also quiet in operation, but the intermittent leak is very disappointing.


Speaking of robotic staff, has anyone here any experience of those robotic vacuum cleaners?

A friend recently bought a Roomba something-or-other and is delighted with it, so much so that she subsequently bought a 'mopping' version for kitchen floors. I confess to being very tempted but they are quite expensive so I'm still in 'research mode'.

 

[Owain]

Without wishing to turn this into the "Period Domestic Appliances" forum,

I was going to suggest a sub-forum for just that, then realised this forum doesn't have sub-fora.