Domestic appliances

[Feltwell]

Not strictly PP, but as so many of us have kitchens to do this could be a useful tip....

They say things come in 3's, well our cooker started playing up, our dishwasher stopped working and the tumble dryer started making ominous noises - all within the space of a week The cooker I've managed to fix without too much expense, the dishwasher after much aggravation has been deemed beyond economic repair, and the tumble dryer is behaving itself again but was sounding like the drum bearing was on the way out, so not too bad a job to do.

Looking online for a new dishwasher I came across the AO Outlet Store on Ebay - where AO.com clear their damaged and customer return items. I wanted a decent quality machine as it will get a lot of hammer with my large family, the old Neff unit lasted 15 years which is not bad really. I spotted a new Bosch machine - Bosch and Neff are the same company - a very expensive machine new, it was £300 below that price but still a lot - but I also spotted from their history that they seemed to be accepting "Best Offer" prices, so I gave them a cheeky bid at £200 below the ticket price, to my surprise they accepted it.

On driving there to collect it, I find a large ex-car showroom absolutely stuffed with every type of appliance you could think of, including things like televisions and laptops as well as kitchen appliances, most of which you'd struggle to find a problem with. AO only started this venture in September apparently and they clearly have a lot of stock to clear so they seem to be accepting reasonable bids below the already reduced ticket prices..... They do seem to be keener than most discount appliance stores who trade in the "grey market" for returned / damaged / end of line appliances.

ApplianceOutletTelford1 is the Ebay seller, they do nationwide delivery for £39. I have seen another AO Outlet Store in Birmingham and the manager in Telford did say it was going well and they were rolling others out, so worth a look before buying new if you're in the market for anything.

 

[Flyfisher]

We bought a lot of our new kitchen appliances from AO. We ordered them online one Sunday evening and they arrived, somewhat unexpectedly, on the following Monday morning!

 

[Socksitis]

Thank you for that really useful info. I went into our local Sparkworld thinking it was selling electrical goods that were damaged, but after comparing I realise they are just the same, if not the same as Euronics. Is the ebay site different to the main AO.com site?

 

[Feltwell]

Is the ebay site different to the main AO.com site?

Yes. The main site sells brand new, fully packaged items. The ebay site is their clearance outlet - so it will be items that customers have returned under their "28 day" satisfaction guarantee, items with damage to either packaging or the item itself, end of line items, obsolete items already taken down from the website that their warehouses then "find" (happens more than you think!), etc etc.

In my case the dishwasher had clearly been installed and taken out again, but otherwise was A1 - and with my bid it was half the new price. Most of the items in the outlet shop looked brand new and undamaged, just with no packaging. Some had a little damage but still useable, and of course depending on the installation the damage may not be visible.

Many years ago I dealt with kitchens at B&Q, customers will return appliances for all kinds of weird & wonderful reasons and if they don't come back perfectly packed in the original packaging they couldn't sell them again as new. There is a whole "grey market" industry in these - historically a "jobber" would buy these in job lots from the likes of AO and then sell them on again to small shops, market traders etc. The jobbers don't give the likes of AO much of a return so they've decided to do the clearance themselves. The key bit is they seem to be taking offers through Ebay for items.

 

[Feltwell]

I've just looked at the instruction manual for the new dishwasher - typical man, get it working first and read the instructions later.... :roll:

It's got Wi-Fi and can talk to an app. Why on earth does a dishwasher need Wi-Fi?

Maybe it's emotionally needy and feels the need to communicate. It can send me emails at 3 in the morning:-

"You just use me - it's alright for you two, off to your nice warm bed, just fill me full of dirty stuff and leave me to do the hard work why don't you?"

"I feel drained. I just can't do this any more. I'm washed up."

I could have just bought the dishwasher equivalent of Marvin the Paranoid Android..........

 

[Flyfisher]

It's got Wi-Fi and can talk to an app. Why on earth does a dishwasher need Wi-Fi?

You tell us - you've read the manual. :wink:

My bet is it can notify your smartphone when it has run out of salt or rinsing agent or has finished a cycle wherever you happen to be on the planet - all things that modern man cannot possibly live without. I've now got dishwasher envy and am not sure how long I can live with our clearly past it dishwasher (coincidentally also a Bosch), which is mute by comparison and can only communicate with a few LEDs and an LCD. You've ruined my Sunday. :lol:

 

[Feltwell]

I can hear it now, that totally depressed voice "Here I am, brain the size of a planet and all you want me to do is tell you I need rinse aid".

(And for anyone who hasn't got a clue what I'm on about, read Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy by the late, great Douglas Adams).

FF, you're just SOOO 20th Century, really. How can you live without knowing 24 hours a day if your dishwasher needs rinse aid or not??

 

[Zebra]

Giraffe and I have just bought a non-working second-hand dishwasher from eBay, which we hope to repair and install here. As well as getting it a new thermostat, I think I shall make it a full telecommunications hub, connected via satellite to all of your dishwashers, so they can compare what we all had for dinner.

 

[Flyfisher]

You may jest Zebra, but IoT** is the next big thing and if it uses electricity then it will soon have such 'intelligence' built-in (allegedly). :shock:

FF, you're just SOOO 20th Century, really. How can you live without knowing 24 hours a day if your dishwasher needs rinse aid or not??

Funnily enough, that's what FF junior keeps telling me - despite my past professional life having been spent working at the 'bleeding edge' of such technologies (well, not ALL of them, but certainly a few areas) as well as being an avid early-adopter of all manner of things, which has cost me a small fortune over the years.

And you're both right! These days I find myself increasingly irritated with overly complex consumer products, most of which can only be repaired by changing a complete sub-assembly instead of replacing the 10p thing that has actually failed. And of course, that sub-assembly is so expensive that when added to the costs of the repair time it often makes it more financially sensible to just throw the whole thing away and buy a new one!! Such is our throwaway society. :twisted:

Zebra has the right idea in buying broken appliances and repairing them, but few people have the knowledge, skills and tools to do this. My most recent example of such lunacy was the repair of a cooker hood in which the lights had failed. Why the original designer decided that it needed a microcontroller to read state of a switch and then operate a relay to turn on the two lamps is beyond me, but the net result was that the failed switch could only be 'repaired' by replacing the entire 'controller' box at a cost of nearly £100 (and probably another £100 for calling out someone to do it) whereas a BRAND NEW complete cooker hood is only around £150 :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Fortunately I was able to unsolder the failed switch from the PCB, replace it with a new one (less than £2 at Maplin), and reassemble everything fully working. So another household appliance saved from landfill, though I'm not kidding myself I've made much difference in that respect. So yes, I'm getting ever more grumpy in my old age. Pah!





** Internet of Things: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_of_things

 

[Owain]

My bet is it can notify your smartphone when it has run out of salt

How primitive. If it was as clever as Alexa it could add salt to your next Amazon order automagically.

 

[Flyfisher]

Indeed, but that's where the IoT supposedly comes in. Appliances automatically calling out service engineers. Fridges keeping track of our food consumption and automatically reordering a supermarket delivery (and possibly informing your GP about your diet). Car heaters coming on with your alarm clock for a warm commute. Occupancy sensors in each room constantly adjusting the heating throughout the house for maximum comfort but minimum energy consumption.

The list is endless . . . . apparently. :roll:

 

[Feltwell]

These days I find myself increasingly irritated with overly complex consumer products, most of which can only be repaired by changing a complete sub-assembly instead of replacing the 10p thing that has actually failed.

I could not agree more. The reason I needed to buy a dishwasher in the first place was that the drain pump jammed on the old one, due (ironically) to a bit of filter housing disintegrating. The pump jamming popped a fuse on the control module, on a PCB - which is of course not easily replaceable.

Not knowing anything about PCB repair, I sent the module off to QER ltd, who repair such things and have a good reputation. They phoned me up and said they couldn't test it but they had replaced the fuse and board powered up, they marked the connection that had caused the problem and advised me to trace that back before reconnecting the control module, all good advice. I did so and found the pump problem, but alas on reconnecting the control module it had obviously fried one of the chips as no lights would come on and all it wanted to do was fill with water. £150 for a new control module - not really worth it for a 15 year old machine where I had already patched the rusty bits on the slide out trays with Sugru(*) more than once! The module itself cannot have cost more than £2 or £3 to produce, a very simple item.

(*) Sugru - a sort of mouldable rubber, goes on like blutac then sets like silicone rubber - clever stuff for repairing all sorts of things, and tough enough to survive the inside of a dishwasher.

 

[Flyfisher]

Well done for keeping it going for 15 years.

Seeing as you've just acquired a new(ish) Bosch dishwasher, I hesitate to mention this but our Bosch dishwasher started misbehaving a while back and kept failing to complete its cycle with an E15 error code. Turned out that in order to prevent a leak flooding the kitchen floor Bosch added an undertray to catch such leaking water. Nice, but pity they didn't concentrate a bit more effort on stopping leaks altogether! So what happens when a leak does occur? Of course the undertray starts to fill up, but still aiming to prevent a flooded kitchen, clever Bosch added a sensor to the undertray that causes the cycle to halt and switches the outlet pump into constant intermittent operation. Genius!

Most of the online advice (I kid you not) was to tilt the dishwasher so that the leaked water swilling around in the undertray tipped out, resetting the flood sensor, so that the dishwasher will then continue for a few more cycles until . . . yes, you're already ahead of me :roll:

Realising that this so-called fix was hardly worthy of the name I ended up tracing the leak to the main drain outlet, took it apart as best I could and liberally applied some Fernox LS-X before reassembling. So far the repair has held up and no more 'E15' errors . . . but I wonder for how long.

This is turning out to be a jolly thread isn't it :lol:

 

[Feltwell]

Well done for keeping it going for 15 years.

I'd love to say it was down to my maintenance skills but fact is I've done nothing to it for 15 years but use it - that's why I wanted another one! Actually, a slight fib, every couple of months I put some anti-limescale cleaning powder through it on the hottest possible wash. It was noticeable when I took it apart that the pump and pipes were nice and clean, no build-up of fat, which I'm told they can be prone to.

 

[fernicarry]

There's an Amazon marketplace seller that flogs off Amazon returns. Can't remember the exact name at the moment but it'll be obvious if you see one. Had a couple of things from it at decent discounts, nothing wrong but tatty packaging and primed to you next day.

 

[MatthewC]

our Bosch dishwasher started misbehaving a while back and kept failing to complete its cycle with an E15 error code. Turned out that in order to prevent a leak flooding the kitchen floor Bosch added an undertray to catch such leaking water. Nice, but pity they didn't concentrate a bit more effort on stopping leaks altogether! So what happens when a leak does occur? Of course the undertray starts to fill up, but still aiming to prevent a flooded kitchen, clever Bosch added a sensor to the undertray that causes the cycle to halt and switches the outlet pump into constant intermittent operation.

I find that pretty amusing, given that one of the best bits of advice we give out on this forum is to tackle the cause of damp, not the symptom!

I recall about 30 years ago discovering when the kettle element failed then I was no longer able to buy a replacement but had to buy a brand new kettle. Even worse was the new washer we bought when we moved in here in 2011 - some Chinese thing (Huawei?) - and when it had a problem I was told that spares were not even available for obvious things like the control unit. So I had to buy a new one and of course I wasn't going to buy the same brand.

We've had continuous troublle with our range cooker (gas/electric) which has a touch pad for the clock/timer control - we thought it would be easier to clean. I got the touch pad fixed under the warranty when it broke the first time, but only months later it again refused to recognise a touch, apart from immediately after turning it off and back on again... :evil:

Then there's our Samsung "American Style" fridge/freezer which has known issues with freezing of the sensors (pretty fundamental in a fridge/freezer) and also had a new control unit after five years.

Of course, in the good old days, we bought a Hoover washing machine in 1976 which lasted until 1997 (including washing nappies for two infants) when the drum bearing collapsed. In those days they made things to last... there should be a "nostalgia" smiley!

Matthew

 

[Feltwell]

Well done for keeping it going for 15 years.

Seeing as you've just acquired a new(ish) Bosch dishwasher, I hesitate to mention this but our Bosch dishwasher started misbehaving a while back and kept failing to complete its cycle with an E15 error code. Turned out that in order to prevent a leak flooding the kitchen floor Bosch added an undertray to catch such leaking water. Nice, but pity they didn't concentrate a bit more effort on stopping leaks altogether! So what happens when a leak does occur? Of course the undertray starts to fill up, but still aiming to prevent a flooded kitchen, clever Bosch added a sensor to the undertray that causes the cycle to halt and switches the outlet pump into constant intermittent operation. Genius!

Most of the online advice (I kid you not) was to tilt the dishwasher so that the leaked water swilling around in the undertray tipped out, resetting the flood sensor, so that the dishwasher will then continue for a few more cycles until . . . yes, you're already ahead of me :roll:

Reminds me of a friend with a motorbike with a leaky gearbox, never got round to fixing it but then it was ok because it fixed itself and stopped leaking, you can guess the rest...... I think it managed about another 500 miles before the gearbox self destructed, which is quite impressive!

Nearly every dishwasher, apart from the real cheapies, have got an under tray and a float sensor of some kind I believe. One thing both my new and old machine have got that I quite like is a twin walled water feed pipe, with a shut off valve that connects directly to the feed tap - if the flexible feed pipe bursts and water goes into the outer section of the pipe it shuts the water off, preventing a flood.

 

[skier-hughes]

One thing both my new and old machine have got that I quite like is a twin walled water feed pipe, with a shut off valve that connects directly to the feed tap - if the flexible feed pipe bursts and water goes into the outer section of the pipe it shuts the water off, preventing a flood.

What happens if mice eat the outer wall and it cannot fill up with water as it leaks profusely when filling up? Just wondering as that's what happened to our pipe, the mice bit not the leaking otherwise I'd know what happens.

 

[fernicarry]

What happens if mice eat the outer wall and it cannot fill up with water as it leaks profusely when filling up

I'd hope that the machine would eventually time out if water wasn't reaching it and stop trying to fill with a helpful error code. Fill rates can't be predictable so there must be a sensor in there to indicate when the water has reached the right level. If it doesn't do that within a few mins then it ought to signal low pressure or something.

Always struck me as a vastly over-engineered solution that only solves part of the problem. What if the waste pipe bursts? Mains pressure water peeing everywhere on the feed side tends to be fairly noticeable -- well maybe not if you aren't there at the time -- but there could be many loads worth of waste water quietly pumped down the back of the machine before it becomes apparent there is a problem. That's what my tenants seemed to have done, they only called for help after the floor got bouncy...

 

[Feltwell]

One thing both my new and old machine have got that I quite like is a twin walled water feed pipe, with a shut off valve that connects directly to the feed tap - if the flexible feed pipe bursts and water goes into the outer section of the pipe it shuts the water off, preventing a flood.

What happens if mice eat the outer wall and it cannot fill up with water as it leaks profusely when filling up? Just wondering as that's what happened to our pipe, the mice bit not the leaking otherwise I'd know what happens.

Not sure TBH Graham. It seems to be a solenoid valve that screws directly to the feed tap - then a length of twin walled hose that goes from the solenoid valve to the dishwasher. Running in the gap between the inner and outer hoses is a cable that must be the power to the solenoid valve.

If the inner water hose bursts and fills the outer hose then it detects this and shuts the solenoid valve - that's the design. As for rodent attacks, I guess how effective it is depends on if the solenoid valve remains open or not when the machine is not in use - I'm not sure. If it shuts when the machine is off then it would be quite effective, as soon as you turned the machine on if the hose had been attacked you'd see the water leaking.

They call the design "Aquastop" if you wanted to look into it further. Perhaps a cat is an easier option!