Disappearing wall

[worms]

I've always understood that acetylene lamps generated the gas withing the lamp by, as you rightly say, dropping pellets of calcium carbide into water. The gas was then immediately burned within the lamp, which pretty much eliminated the explosion risk.

I thought they normally did the reverse - the water dripped through a small hole into the calcium carbide, ensuring a longer and more controlled release of gas?

 

[Lime]

I've always understood that acetylene lamps generated the gas withing the lamp by, as you rightly say, dropping pellets of calcium carbide into water. The gas was then immediately burned within the lamp, which pretty much eliminated the explosion risk.

Would acetylene have been appropriate for a private "gas works" housed in a separate gas house and then piped around the main house?

Yes it was more common than coal gas.
The acetylene was produced in a metal container (rather like a large kipps aparatus) where a metal bell held the gas with a basket of carbide within it.
the whole metal bell was inverted (opening downwards) into a large metal bowl of water, the carbide met the water, produced gas, the gas lifted the bell and basket out of the water, the gas production stopped.
The acetylene was taken by a pipe from the top of the bell.
When acetylene gas was burnt/used the bell sank into the water and the whole process of gas production began again.

It was a common means of producing acetylene gas for welding too.

 

[Onetap]

However, we have not yet discovered how the gas was produced. Any ideas?
Sarah

Probably as for town gas, heating coal in an air-tight oven. The combustible gases are driven off and can be piped to the point of use. The gas contains a large percentage of poisonous carbon monoxide, which is why putting your head in a gas oven was a common suicide method; it doesn't work with natural gas, which is mostly methane.

The process sounds cumbersome, but is used now with wood to run gasifier boilers, burners and generators. There were towable gas plants used to run buses in WW2.

I doubt that acetylene was used simply because calcium carbide would have been more expensive than coal. Coal would probably have been burned in fireplaces.

Potholers still used carbide lamps into the 1980s (and may still do, for all I know); they (the lamps) were used by target shooters to blacken rifle foresights with the very matt lamp black.

Are there any pictures of the pulley mechanism? The wall sounds like it was built like a huge sash window. I'd have thought that there would be access to the pit to clean it out; it must have been waterproofed as well (bitumen?).

 

[Onetap]

Stop picking on Joce; you're both wrong. As Joce and I well know, it is an inflatable chimney that is deflated before lowering the wall. 8)

Don't be ridiculous.

Obviously it would have been a telescopic stave-built chimney, built by the local coopers and chimney-wrights.

 

[Lime]

However, we have not yet discovered how the gas was produced. Any ideas?
Sarah

Probably as for town gas, heating coal in an air-tight oven. The combustible gases are driven off and can be piped to the point of use. The gas contains a large percentage of poisonous carbon monoxide, which is why putting your head in a gas oven was a common suicide method; it doesn't work with natural gas, which is mostly methane.

The process sounds cumbersome, but is used now with wood to run gasifier boilers, burners and generators. There were towable gas plants used to run buses in WW2.

I doubt that acetylene was used simply because calcium carbide would have been more expensive than coal. Coal would probably have been burned in fireplaces.

Potholers still used carbide lamps into the 1980s (and may still do, for all I know); they (the lamps) were used by target shooters to blacken rifle foresights with the very matt lamp black.

Are there any pictures of the pulley mechanism? The wall sounds like it was built like a huge sash window. I'd have thought that there would be access to the pit to clean it out; it must have been waterproofed as well (bitumen?).

"Country mansions and such detached residences were often lighted by acetylene gas. A license was required to enable a person to keep more than 28 lbs. of calcium carbide stored in any building."

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/cgi-bin/res.pl?keyword=Hydrate&offset=0

In my youth I saw many such acetylene generators often in garden sheds used for lighting, heating and welding.

Lots more here:
http://www.fullbooks.com/Acetylene-The-Principles-Of-Its-Generation3.html

 

[Flyfisher]

Very interesting. Thanks for digging out those references. Acetylene or coal gas, it certainly puts the convenience of electricity into context! Still, like so many things about past ways of life, I assume most big houses would have had many staff to help run such things.

 

[Moo]

As you've no doubt discovered by now, Sarah, there's no end to the esoteric knowledge on tap here.
If, that is, you're prepared to wade through the swamp of rather feeble jokes ...

xx M

 

[FamilyWiggs]

As you've no doubt discovered by now, Sarah, there's no end to the esoteric knowledge on tap here.
If, that is, you're prepared to wade through the swamp of rather feeble jokes ...

xx M

Harumph. I totally resemble that! :lol:

 

[Feltwell]

Rather feeble jokes? How dare you Moo!

Very feeble, at least.

 

[Coombe]

Hello PPUK, this is Philip, Sarah's husband. I have been reading with interest the responses to the news of our disappearing wall and the gas house.

A couple of clarifications with the wall: the well into which it sinks is dry and is, obviously, deeper than the height of the wall when lowered into it. The wall does not touch the walls of the well nor its floor. The well is brick lined. There is no damp proofing but there is a drain on the floor which leads out to the (lower) herbaceous border in the garden. The first time we exposed the well (a couple of years ago) I went down into it with a ladder and there was some water in the bottom but the walls were dry. This time it was all dry. I assume that it will be necessary to raise the wall periodically to check and maintain it. The ornate, carved oak door, must have survived many submersions in the past but I think we will give it a good rub down with oil when it is next up (any suggestions as to what type to use gratefully received - we have used a hard wax oil on the oak panelling in the drawing room and have in the past used a Danish oil on floors).

The suggestion that the gas house might have been used to produce acetylene gas is interesting. The gas house (photos attached) is about 100 yards from the house, and somewhat lower than the house itself. The floor level within the gas house is some 4 feet lower than ground level, so the internal height is probably 18 feet or so. Is acetylene lighter than air? Whatever gas was manufactured in the gas house it must have been lighter than air because there is no sign of any pump. There is evidence of a housing for a tank near to the 'servant's' end of the house (the platform remains and the OS map still anotates it as 'tank') but this is raised some 6 feet above the level of the house. It may be entirely unconnected with gas of course. In the base of the gas house is a water tap and also a drain.

From what we can tell, electricty was not introduced into the house until the 1950s at the earliest. All the wall lights have been converted from gas to electric and still have 'taps'.

Philip

 

[Penners]

Many thanks for the additional information, Philip.

When you say: "I assume that it will be necessary to raise the wall periodically to check and maintain it", do I infer that your intention is normally to have the wall dropped (ie: hidden away)?

If so, was it like that when you bought the house, or was it raised?

I'm just slightly concerned that, if the wall is now left normally in its well, and only raised occasionally, there could be a risk of its deterioration due to a damp atmosphere.

Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick, but I thought this was worth mentioning.

As regards your question about the gas, Mr Google tells me that acetylene is slightly lighter than air. Coal gas is, I believe, methane, which is also lighter than air.

 

[Flyfisher]

Coal gas is, I believe, methane, which is also lighter than air.

I thought it was natural gas that was mainly methane, with coal gas being mainly hydrogen. But Mr Google informed me that coal gas did, indeed, contain methane but also could be "enriched" (calorific value increased) by adding steam to the process, which added hydrogen and carbon monoxide to the mixture. So, a right old mixture really.

My recollection of the hydrogen content was from school chemistry lessons around the time of the switchover to natural (North Sea) gas and the chemistry teacher explaining that some of the experimental methods in the text books that relied on a supply of hydrogen as a reactant would no longer work with natural gas.

 

[Onetap]

Whatever gas was manufactured in the gas house it must have been lighter than air because there is no sign of any pump. There is evidence of a housing for a tank near to the 'servant's' end of the house (the platform remains and the OS map still anotates it as 'tank') but this is raised some 6 feet above the level of the house.

The density of the gas isn't relevant since it would have been supplied under pressure to the house from whatever container it was generated in. The pressure would push it to the burners at the open ends of the supply pipes and no pump was needed. Pumps are used to boost gas pressures but would have been very advanced for such an early system with no electric power available. There shouldn't be any air in the supply pipes because it could form an explosive mixture.

Gas density is only a concern with LPG (butane/propane) on boats where the gas is heavier than air and can accumulate in the hull. This have been numerous explosions and asphyxiations.

I didn't know that acetylene had been used for domestic lighting, so thanks for that LIME.

 

[worms]

Phillip,

To my inexpert eye, the gas house looks altogether too small and clean to have been a coal gas plant, but the size and the date might be right for one of the acetylene or petroleum systems shown at the end of the link that flysfisher posted above. Also there is no obvious sign of a flue, which would have been needed for a coal gas facility but presumably not needed for acetylene.

 

[d49xc]

rather off topic....
But you should never store LPG containers such as propane etc in a cellar because as a previous poster has stated it is heaver than air and if it leaks it will displace the air in the cellar with 100% propane gas........which will not be good for your health when you descend into said cellar to look for something and start breathing it in.

Are you sure the Gas house was not a well pumping house for the house water supply - with the well either under the pumping house or a short distance away.

 

[philpjuk100]

We live in a house built by the nearby hall as an estate to supply services to the hall.There is "gas house","the forge",blacksmiths cottage" and ours,"wheelwrights cottage" on early maps the lane is shown as gashouse lane,then changed to blacksmith lane although on even earlier maps the houses just seem to be on a green with no roads.The gashouse is now a dwelling as is the forge.phil.(we have been told that our lime ash floors use byproducts from gas production and from the lime kiln)

 

[Juju]

Loved the photos of the disappearing wall but can I also make a request for photos of the gardens to be put on here - they sound intriguing (I've recently resigned from my job as a lecturer in management to make a career in historic gardens research and design)
Juju

 

[Coombe]

I think we will leave the wall in its down position for now, and may keep it down more than up. The Arts & Crafts use of a 'living hall' makes much more sense to us now that the space is opened out.

With regard to the 'gas' topic, there is no flue in the gas house nor any sign that there ever has been. The existence of a tap suggests that perhaps the acetylene idea is right. If it is lighter than air, it perhaps might have been produced and drifted up through a pipe to the tank near the rear of the house where, perhaps, it was subjected to some pressure for use in the house. As the house does not seem to have had electricity until the 50s' this is unlikely to have been an electric pump.

Another question about the gas house which intrigues me - why the very high ceiling, and why the very low floor? When we first moved in we wondered if its proximity to the stables might have indicated a methane producing plant, but ....

Philip

 

[worms]

Well, my initial thought was that the low floor/high ceiling was to incorporate a gasometer arrangement: low floor so that you could have a water tank that the gas tank lid floated on; high ceiling to give space for the gasometer to lift into. But the steep angle of the roof would mean that the useable height would be quite limited, so perhaps that idea doesn't work.

 

[Lime]

An acetylene generator would not need a pump.
Ordinary north sea gas manages to heat homes with not more than 75mbar inlet pressure.
An acetylene generator would be able to supply gas at much higher pressures than that far in excess of any domestic requirement.


Acetylene generators are still manufactured.
Many are on the internet, particularly in India.


This book is from the turn of the century.
http://www.pdfbooks.co.za/library/F._H._LEEDS_AND_W._J._ATKINSON_BUTTERFIELD/F._H._LEEDS_AND_W._J._ATKINSON_BUTTERFIELD-ACETYLENE_-_THE_PRINCIPLES_OF_ITS_GENERATION_AND_USE.pdf

This pdf shows a Minnesota farm acetylene generator.
http://www.dot.state.mn.us/environment/pdf_files/crunit/elementsae.pdf

It would explain the very low floor.