Determining age of house

[zunetunes]

Our house, formerly a shop was built sometime in Victorian times. It's on its own in a village on an island site. It abuts a (probably older) barn and has an "extension" - currently utility room and bathroom above. I'm trying to establish the date of the extension. It is built of brick but seems to have lime mortar. What date was lime no longer used in construction? Bear in mind I'm in West Cumbria, not London so I guess they may have used old technology for longer! Also a dividing wall uses plaster and lathe - does this give a clue as to the latest it was likely to have been built?

Edit- you may want to fastforward to post 8 of this thread for more about this house

 

[skier-hughes]

I've just had a chimney built with lime mortar, so the last time it was used was about 2.45pm today :lol:

I think you may need to use other clues to determine your dates.

Graham

 

[middi]

The type of roof construction and type and size of rafters will give a good indication as to how old the construction could be.

any original doors and especially hingies is also a very good indication.

A scribbled date on one of the rafters would be magic.

 

[zunetunes]

The original slates have been replaced with tiles. The roof structore is similar to the main part of the house. Whilst I appreciate that lime is still used, was there a rough date when sand and cement took over as the usual choice of mortar for builders

 

[middi]

In brief, "cement" as we know it made an appearance in the early part of the 19th cen.( 1820,s), it's development and use increased in home construction quite slowly, it was after the great war that really made an impact on home building and by the time the rebuilding program was necessitated by the second war, it ( more or less) took over all masonary type constructions.

As cement use increased lime use decreased , as a rule of thumb you could say that up to 1915 the average home construction was more than likely build with lime.

Of course lime mortars are still used today and the "take over" is not confined to a particular year or decade. It was a gradual change more pronounced is some part of the country than others.

IT still does not solve your problem I am afraid , but it should give an indication to help make your own mind up.

 

[lordmulberry]

Not that I know a lot about building dating but will not the "bond" used in the brick walls give a clue. I.E. English, Flemish, Stretcher (modern), etc

 

[Moo]

Are you sure that the extension was a later addition?

A bit more information about the house itself (plus, ideally, some photographs) would be a great help. At the moment people are just guessing, which is a pity when you consider how much real knowledge is sloshing around the forum.

 

[zunetunes]

Thanks for replies. Almost certainly an addition. Thanks Moo- I'll put some photos up

 

[zunetunes]

Have expanded the info beyond the original. Have put some photos at http://www.coolblue.org.uk/GreatBroughton2.htm. They may take a while to download so maybe best to go there and start downloading while you read on..
The house was built as a shop with living accom above. The plot is called "Central Place" and the shop was called "Central Stores". It was a general store till the 1990's when it became a chip shop, then hairdresser, then went into disrepair. The owners prior to us did substantial (somewhat cosmetic) internal renovation to the house but not the downstairs shop area.
I think its pre-1870 as I've seen an OS map that has the site shown. We've been told that the barn was there first and the shop built on. As well as the existing barn there were other outbuildings which have been pulled down including a wash house for the neighbouring cottages. The house is mainly constructed of sandstone. Photo4 is the interior of the shop that we've stripped back the plaster from due to severe penetrating damp. Part was modern plaster, part was lime. Interior walls are brick (photo8) The bricks on every 4th course are laid at right angles.
Photo2 shows the "barn" on the right, shop/house left and the middle bit which I call the extension and appears to be added later. If you look at the sketchplan (not very clear I'm afraid) you'll see the extension is marked orange.
Photo3 shows the extension utility room with bathroom above.
Returning to photo2, I suspect the barn originally extended up to the shop/house and that then the middle extension bit was inserted to accomodate the stairs to first floor. The floor to this is concrete whereas the main shop/house is floorboards. There is also evidence of a former roof that follows the line of the barn roof
I suspect (suprisingly?) there was originally an outdoor staircase to the first floor located where the extension utility room and bathroom above are now. We are told the first floor was storage for the shop and that there was a hoist where the balcony is (Photo3)
To my original question about the age of the extension see photo6. This is in the loft of the extension & shows the extension brickwork with lime mortar. Photo7 also in that loft shows the original exterior. It shows that at the time of the extension the exterior walls to the main shop/house were rendered but unpainted. It also shows the top of what I think was the original first floor exterior door.
Finally I discovered some Victorian wallpaper in the shop area under modern plaster but on top of lime. Photo10
I appreciate there may just be too much here but I guess someone may be interested. It is a house full of history and it would be fascinating to discover more about it.

 

[chuckey]

I have a similar interest in my Dales cottage. One interesting point is that the cottage has got a"ridge board" in its roof of 4" X 4". The associated barn has a ridgeboard of 6" X 1". In general the lime work in the barn seems to be in much better condition tends to confirm its a younger building. I have seen the deeds and both existed in 1805. The other funny is that the cottage has a flat roofed extension built with 1 1/2" X 4" tongue and groove boarding fastened by oval headed nails. Every other aspect of the extension could date to the 1650s!!
Some time in December there is a talk on the history of dales cottages at the Hawes museum, I hope to pick up some (building)dating advice.
frank

 

[Nemesis]

You might find this useful also:

http://www.yvbsg.org.uk/

 

[MdB]

Have expanded the info beyond the original. Have put some photos at http://www.coolblue.org.uk/GreatBroughton2.htm. They may take a while to download so maybe best to go there and start downloading while you read on..

Zunetunes, you might want to resize your pictures next time so they don't take so long to download (resizing in html is generally a bad idea for this very reason). Make them clickable to the full size image is also a good thing.

Firefox users can right click on the image and select "view image" to get the full size version. I can't find an easy way of doing this for IE users - I would suggest going and getting firefox

 

[biffvernon]

Looks, er, pre-1870 to me, though the windows might not be original.

Interior walls are brick (photo8) The bricks on every 4th course are laid at right angles.

That's called English Garden Wall bond. It's not quite as strong as English bond, where alternate courses are headers and stretchers. It has the advantage, for a wall where one side only is exposed, in requireing a smaller proportion of the bricks to be of 'facing' quality. Grotty bricks are cheaper so if a larger proportion are hidden the wall can be made more cheaply. Of course this doesn't apply if the wall is plastered, but Pic.8 implies that one side of this wall was just limewashed rather than plastered.

 

[Moo]

I had no problem with opening, but that's possibly something to do with broadband (though I only have the most basic ntl one).

 

[zunetunes]

Anyone know if there is anywhere I can get advice on the age etc of the victorian wallpaper?

 

[arl]

Have you tried looking on old maps. we were lucky in that the victorian maps of our area are so detailed you can see the extension to my house on a map printed in 1905.

 

[Nemesis]

Wallpaper - could try the curator at the V and A...