Damp under parquet even after some work

[Garyivy]

Thank you for your lengthy reply, really appreciated!

They were recommended, provided case studies and seemed competent. The other areas of the frame seem fine so far.

The gap between frame and DPM is only pressured with mortar being forced in underneath the membrane. Why would the expanding foam be injected between frame and DPM, would it not be better to go underneath the DPC so the DPC is tight to the frame rather than foam to the frame, or is it a case of the DPM should be forced tighter to the surface below it rather than above?

You would be temped to get rid of the DPC altogether?

Thanks again

 

[noj]

I think you're unfortunate in that I'm betting that the DPC you inserted slopes slightly down from outside to in. If it had happened to slope the other way there would have been no problem!

Sounds like the squirty foam to make a complete seal, faced with a waterproof sealant is probably the way forward. Since the membrane appears to be having a negative effect I'd be inclined to remove it (but that's just my inclination)

 

[Garyivy]

Thanks Noj, it probably is that way but no way of actually checking!

Would the membrane not protect the frame sill at all and removing it make it more liable to rot/hold water?

 

[Jahouli]

Hi Garyivy

Sorry to hear you are having this issue, these sorts of issues can be pretty demoralising. I would agree with Cubist - make sure you eliminate the possibility it is coming in from around the frame or making its way through the door seal.

I've had an ongoing saga with a composite door where a damp patch appears on my internal concrete threshold after driving rain. I can't put flooring down until I solve it. I resealed around the outside as thoroughly as I could but it still happens. I found the following video which describes how to correct an issue with threshold seals that are too short and after checking my seals carefully during heavy rain they appear to be the cause. I'm off to get some sealant tomorrow to give it a go.

May be completely unrelated to your issue but just on the off chance it might help:

 

[Cubist]

Thank you for your lengthy reply, really appreciated!

They were recommended, provided case studies and seemed competent. The other areas of the frame seem fine so far.

The gap between frame and DPM is only pressured with mortar being forced in underneath the membrane. Why would the expanding foam be injected between frame and DPM, would it not be better to go underneath the DPC so the DPC is tight to the frame rather than foam to the frame, or is it a case of the DPM should be forced tighter to the surface below it rather than above?

You would be temped to get rid of the DPC altogether?

Thanks again

Hi Gary,
The assumptions underpinning my thinking were that you had installed the DPC by laying it directly against the brick surfaces and then infilled with mortar above it and up to the timber frame. Your reply above, and to later contributions, seems to suggest that you attempted to press the mortar 'under' the DPC and above the brickwork. If that's correct then there is a risk/probability that pockets/voids may have been formed both above and below the DPC and I suspect it is via these that rain-water is getting indoors.

This is going to sound like heresy to some, but frankly, I think your best option right now is to root out both the DPC and the mortar to create a clear cavity into which an expanding foam can be injected as discussed earlier. Before injecting the foam you could re-instate a new DPC membrane on top of the brickwork, but I would recommend leaving a tongue projecting say 1cm beyond the brick edge, then inject the foam above it and below the frame. The expanded foam and the membrane will then work in concert to limit damp penetration into the woodwork as per your original intent and downward pressure from the foam will help the DPCs contact with the brickwork.Trim off the tongue, cut the rebate in the faomand fill with silicone, as discussed earlier to finish the job.
Cheers,
Cubist

 

[Cubist]

This happens far too often. I go away thinking I helped to solve a problem and an afterthought occurs that offers an alternative and perhaps easier approach. On this occasion though I can point to an alternative alternative insofar that... you could clean out about 20mm deep gap between the frame and the brickwork leaving any residual DPC membrane and mortar in place then firmly hammer in some oakum with the aim of leaving a .5-1cm cm gap that can then be filled with mortar. This is the same approach we use for timber frames and the oakum provides a water resistant barrier that is more effective than silicone.

However, oakum is typically supplied in 3-5kg bales and costs about £60 so it's a bit expensive for just a 3 metre run that would need less than .5kg. There is though an old trick that some framers use that consists of tearing two or three 5cm strips off an old cotton bedding sheet and soaking these in some linseed oil. Wring out the bulk of the oil from the strips and these can then be twisted and hammered into place just like oakum.

 

[Garyivy]

Hi Cubist and thank you very much for you insights, although don’t be losing sleep over it!

I think I’m going to go with your first suggestion in all honesty, mainly because the method and materials seem easier and more commonly used. I’ve cleared the area in preparation and with a little luck will attempt over the next few days. Fingers crossed!

 

[Garyivy]

So, old DPM and mortar raked out, new one put in. Foam between frame and DPM, mortar underneath and exterior sealant covering all on the outside.

What advice would you give for the inside, again I’ve foamed between DPM and frame and cut away the excess and I’m now left with this



I’m going to put parquet tiles back over the top (with blackjack or f21 bitumen) but should I do anything else internally ?

 

[Cubist]

Before going any further you need to test to ensure that no more water is getting in from the exterior. Once you are satisfied that's the case you can re-dfinsih the interior with confidence.

 

[Garyivy]

Thanks Cubist, tested this morning and all seems to be good.

Although another problem.

When testing with a hose outside there seems to be water collecting internally where this red circle highlights and dribbling itself in. I would imagine running down between the frame and door. I’m waiting on a response from the fitters, but any initial thoughts?

 

[Cubist]

A couple of questions and thoughts;

1. Was this after a test with a pressure washer or was it rainfall?
2. Does that door open out toward the garden/patio?
3. Is that a rubber draft weather seal at the bottom of the door?
4. Is there a pressure seal installed all the way around the closure faces of the door jamb and does the door close tightly against them?

If a pressure washer was used it's likely that this forced water around the door jamb and under/over the pressure strip. Normal heavy rainfall would be unlikely to produce this problem unless it was driven against the door by high winds. Theres a little trick you can use to help in testing the weather seals that uses a thinned down emulsion paint applied to the closure faces of the door jamb. Dry the closure faces, paint with the thinned emulsion and let that dry, close the door and either wait for rain or use a pressure washer from a distance of 6 feet for a minute or two. Any water getting past the closure seals will probably show up as 'tracks' through the emulsion paint.

 

[Garyivy]

Cubist, again, thank you

1 - Not a pressure wash, but a hose directly against all areas, including the ‘gap’ between frame and door.

2 - it’s does open to the patio

3 - it’s not rubber, but aluminium

4 - not entirely sure what a pressure seal is, but there’s a rubber seal - more draft excluder like, all the way around.

How do you mean sorry, dry the closure faces. Are these the external facing part of the frame that would be covered by the door?

 

[Garyivy]

This is the ‘draft’ seal

 

[Cubist]

Hi Gary,
Thanks for the quick reply. Aluminium, and for that matter UPVC, door and window frames typically use a a rubber seal all around the closure jambs for windows and doors. There are several types some of which are simple flaps or tubes that press firmly against the surfaces of the frame and the door/window to create the weather seal. To ensure these work effectively they must, as far as possible;

1. Run continuously around the perimeter of the opening. Ideally there will be no breaks in these other than at the corners but any such need to be butted tightly together.
2. The door/window must be adjusted to close firmly against the seals around the full perimeter.
3. Where doors are concerned the pressure fit needed to achieve weather tightness must only rely on the normal door latch and not on the 3 point locking system, typical of such openings.

Before doing anything else I would advise that you check:

1. The doors closure to make sure that it fits properly in the jamb - adjust as needed.
2. That neither the door nor the jamb are warped in any way.
3. That the seals are present, continuous and undamaged.
4. Test the door closure by placing a 50mm wide strip of paper between the door and the jamb at every point around the perimeter. You should not be able to pull the paper out when the door is shut using just the latch. If it feels loose or can be easily pulled out the seal is not working.

 

[Stevers]

We have a set of original French windows added before 1899 that open inwards. Facing south west they have no protection from the prevailing weather and despite having weather bars, the right combination of wind and rain always causes them to leak copiously. No-one should have to do this with modern joinery, but in desperation I added an internal gutter made from 22mm copper pipe cut in half complete with 15mm trap and outlet through the stone wall. This was the first hole that I drilled SDS style with a borrowed Hilti gun and it went through an awful lot of stone just like it was butter! Very satisfying on a wet and windy day to see the the outlet dripping water that had previously gone into the fabric of the house rotting out a lintel and ruining the decorations.

 

[Garyivy]

The water coming under the doors has been solved now, just onto the next!

The joiners are coming tomorrow to investigate and repair/fix what needs doing so will update from there.

Stevers, sounds like you’ve done a great job the way!