damp, dry rot?

[daveyx]

Hi I have submiitted a question to the agonyuncles but thought I would post here in case my question is not answered. I thought somebody here maybe able to help. This is what I wrote:

I rent a raised ground floor flat in converted Victorian house. Have major damp problem. Delays in it being fixed.

Outside: downpipe leaking soaking external wall. has mushrooms growing. boiler vent not properly sealed & bad pointing round that area. the soaking external wall is in a corner where the kitchen (extension) wall meets the bedroom wall. very musty smell in both rooms.

Inside: large area of kitchen wall very wet, peeling paint, black mould, blue mould. same wall in bedroom damp with black mould. mould on skirting board.
Kitchen: very wet patch approx 20cm above skirting board+black mould. mould round boiler. Bedroom:found damp floor boards.

Outside: Mushrooms- Creamy orange, 1like deep bowl, others much shallower with wavy edges. White bits inside. Could this be dry rot? Builder not yet aware of these.

Have dehumidifier. builder planning to strip paint & then cover with antimould paint.
Should he be doing more? photos - not bedroom http://www.flickr.com/photos/18542664@N05/sets/

 

[DaveBrigg]

Just a few thoughts to start you off...
This sounds like a severe damp problem. First of all you need to identify where the damp is coming from, otherwise you're wasting your time. The downpipe needs to be repaired, and tested to see if it drains anywhere. Checking the gutters at the same time may be a good idea. Condensation may also be a culprit, especially in the kitchen area. Is there adequate ventilation?
Are there any external walls where ground levels are within 8 inches of the height of your floorboards?

When you have removed the cause of the damp it is going to take a long time to dry out. If the brickwork and floorboards are saturated, and it's getting cold outside, be prepared for several months before you notice a big improvement.

It also sounds like the mould is sufficient for you to be worried about your health. Have the council environmental people been round recently?...

 

[daveyx]

Thanks for your reply Dave. I've been trying to tell the landlord how bad the problem is for 4 months. I called environmental health yesterday (should have doen it earlier perhaps) and they are going to ring me to arrange to come round (hopefully in under two weeks).

I don't normally see the back walls as I don't go round that way but having looked yesterday at the saturation I cannot believe the builder didn't mention it or look closely at it. I was watching from my window when he looked at the walls four weeks ago and he thinks it's a pointing problem on another part of the wall. He only brought a dehumidifier round yesterday and is planning to work next week. I sent the landlord photos of the inside 4 weeks ago so they should have an idea it's bad.

But I looked at the wall yesterday and discovered the leaking drainpipe. Then I lifted the carpet in the bedroom so have only just discovered the damp floorboards. Which the builder didn't think of looking at when he came round to inspect last month.

I'm not really very knowledgeable about building stuff. Just kept on reporting severe damp and mould on the walls. The builder gives the impression of not thinking it's a big problem. Unfortunately he's the only person the landlords trust according to them.

The floors are about 4feet above ground level at the back

 

[Matt Green]

You have Peziza sp. fungus, not dry rot. Search Flickr for the difference in appearance.

It's not a wood-decaying fungus, per se, but is indicative of a large amount of water, it requires saturated conditions.

More later, when I get a chance.


Matt Green

 

[daveyx]

cheers matt

 

[Penners]

daveyx - just in case you didn't know, Matt's a professional expert in this field.

 

[daveyx]

Thanks penners. This is probably a really dumb question but if you have damp floorboards and damp underlay do you need to keep the carpet lifted up for it and the floor to completely dry? (once the source of damp has been eliminated). Or would it dry out ok placed back down?

 

[Penners]

Much better to lift the carpet, so the air can get to as many surfaces as possible - both sides of carpet, ditto underlay, and the floorboards.

And, as you say, it's important to eliminate the source of damp before you lay everything down again (after it's dry).

 

[daveyx]

I've just thought the mushrooms on the outside wall are maybe a bit lower than my bedroom floor and on the cellar part of the wall. There might be one or two at bedroom floor level but I'd need to recheck when I get the chance. The wall above that level is still extremely wet though - the downpipe is spraying water out from a leak which is about the nearly top of the bedroom window level.

Also I said the builder would use 'antimould paint' in my first post - I think actually it would be a damp seal which sounds more appropriate. (on the inside walls)

 

[Mark]

IAlso I said the builder would use 'antimould paint' in my first post - I think actually it would be a damp seal which sounds more appropriate. (on the inside walls)

No it doesnt.

You need to get the wall dried out and that isnt going to happen until you stop the gutters spraying water all over it, and sort out the pointing.

Then it will take time to dry. Probably a long time. Use a dehumidifier if you like.

 

[Alastair]

Then it will take time to dry. Probably a long time. Use a dehumidifier if you like.

Dehumidifiers don't remove much water unless the relative humidity is 90% +, and the temperature is well over 20 deg C. It also needs a sealed room, otherwise you may as well stand under a waterfall with a mop and bucket. A fan is a great help if you can't get air movement by any other means.

 

[daveyx]

Would a damp seal be appropriate after the sources of the problem have been remedied or does the wall need to dry out first without it?

I'm also wondering if the downpipe and pointing are the only sources though.

the wall in the kitchen that is very wet is one that juts in internally - a doorway has been cut in it and it is at right angles from the external wall (it does meet the external wall of course.) I don't know if I've explained that very well. I guess the water could just travel that way from the soaking exterior bedroom wall -(it's the same wall - kitchen extension at right angle to that wall). Otherwise I was wondering about leaking water pipes inside.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/18542664@N05/1886874232/in/set-72157602957724309/

ie the boiler is on the external kitchen wall, the damp wall in the kitchen is the same as the bedroom wall which has been getting the real soaking from the outside.

 

[Matt Green]

Would a damp seal be appropriate after the sources of the problem have been remedied or does the wall need to dry out first without it?

I'm also wondering if the downpipe and pointing are the only sources though.

Damp seal is almost universally inappropriate. You may not see the symptoms but you haven't cured the problem either. When you do eventually see the symptoms, they're much worse- the plaster falls off the walls.

The gutters and downpipes seem to be causing much of the problems here to my eye. The pictures show rust on the metal lath behind the skim which suggests water is moving from the wall through the plaster into the room. If it was condensation it would form on the surfaces rather than the corners and wouldn't rust the metal behind the plaster (very quickly). It's fresh water because you have mould growth. All of which points to the rainwater equipment.

Get them fixed and ensure that water drains from the base of the walls correctly and the situation should improve.


Matt Green

 

[daveyx]

Thanks Matt. I will have to try and convince the landlord and builder not to use damp seal then and get the guttering and pipes thoroughly checked out and sorted. Unfortunately I'm not sure they'll listen to me as the landlord will only use this particular builder. (The builder who didn't even register the exterior wall was soaking where as Matt has spotted rusted areas from the photos.)

So basically what they should do is

1 sort out leaking down pipe, drainage and guttering
2 and repointing?
3 strip paint inside & clear mould
4 allow along time to dry
5 repaint with normal paint (not even anti mould paint?)

?

I have a couple of other questions too.

1) As there is mould growing around the boiler should that be taken off the wall to check for mould problems behind it? see pic of left of boiler

http://www.flickr.com/photos/18542664@N05/1886112325/in/set-72157602957724309/

there is also this area underneath it:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/18542664@N05/1886936796/in/set-72157602957724309/

there is a layer of 'very thick paint' (possibly a damp seal used before?) above it underneath the front of the boiler before the back of it is attached. I picked some of that off and noticed fine mould growing underneath it - but nothing on top.

2) the damp floorboards. they are not saturated but damp where they meet the skirting board which is not a surprise. Then there are dry areas but there are also further areas of damp much further into the (small) bedroom too. Could there be another source causing this? Do the foorboards need to come up?

Sorry to ask so many questions and I appreciate the help from everybody. I fear I am going to have a battle on my hands with the landlord. I would only have two grounds that they will be interested in I think -a) that their property will deterioate further if not sorted properly and will cost a lot of money in the long run b) that there is a health risk to me. (because of the law).

They cleared the guttering in july. Can't have done avery good job or they didn't spot defects.

 

[DaveBrigg]

Hmm. Any builder responsible for the flat getting into that state needs replacing. The owner should also realise that damp floorboards will rot and collapse, carpets will rot, plaster will fall off, creating a very large repair bill and making the property drop in value.

From the pictures, the boiler certainly seems to be attracting damp. You mentioned in the first post that the vent is not properly sealed. To my untrained eye that suggests that either the water is coming in around the vent, or more seriously the flue gases are leaking back in and condensing on the walls. In either case, a gas engineer would be concerned.

I hope that the landlord appreciates the effort you are making to help save his property, when you have grounds for finding alternative accommodation.

 

[Penners]

I fear I am going to have a battle on my hands with the landlord.

It's extraordinary that you have to resort to a battle in order to get the owner of this valuable building to carry out work to save it from serious damage. :roll:

 

[daveyx]

Thanks all. The landlords are barking I think. I first notified them of the problems in mid-July. I kept on at them but the builder's 1st visit was 4 weeks ago and no work is planned until next week at the earliest. (He didn't come any sooner due to having a lot of other work on and the landlords refused to send anyone else.)

I'm sure they will fix the leak once I've reminded the builder about it but I don't feel so confident about them generally sorting out the guttering and making sure water is draining away from the building due to them having been not very good so far. I'm also not sure if they'll refrain from putting damp seal on the inside walls. I know he said there was no need to take the boiler off and check the wall behind. From previous experience with them I'm not too hopeful about what they'll do about the damp floorboards either!

I've really tried to take care of the property since I moved in but if they are just going to do a patch up job then I think I'll have to move. It's not really convenient for me to move until next year and it's a shame because I really like the flat in other respects but it may be the only sensible course of action from my point of view.

I will try and tell them about the expert advice I've had here. Environmental health are suposed to be coming round too (at my request) so I'll see what they say about how & what repairs should be done.

 

[daveyx]

I've had another thought. I'm not sure rain water is actually getting through the area round the boiler vent and just below. It might be:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/18542664@N05/sets/72157602954553240/

But I'm thinking something different now. I know pipes from the boiler were leaking at some point before I moved in. I think xxx the builder may have used damp seal behind the boiler in the past as I can pick off a very very thick 'layer of paint' (1-2mm - or is it paint with a layer of plaster?)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/18542664@N05/1923996624/

to reveal mould growing underneath. Maybe that spread to and caused the mould come out the paint round the boiler's edge. Maybe all this it has resulted in damaged plaster here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/18542664@N05/1886073369/in/set-72157602957724309/

I'm not sure of course having only just found out about all this stuff and could be way off the mark here. Whoever put the boiler in could have just been rubbish.

 

[Penners]

The picture of your paint sample on a fork is a bit out of focus, but I think it might be paint on top of a thin plaster skim.

 

[daveyx]

thanks.