Dale farm apply to English Heritage for listing

[Lime]

the law that makes smoking cannabis, which kills approximately nobody, illegal while allowing the smoking of tobacco that kills approximately zillions.

Or what about the law that prevents people walking naked down the street? I may not wish to do it myself (you'll be relieved to hear) but I don't see why it has to be illegal.

Well, firstly, there is no law that makes smoking tobacco legal. There is simply a lack (largely for historical reasons) of a law that makes it illegal - except in a large number of places. In the case of cannabis, the deleterious effects of it are not yet completely understood, but it has been shown to have an adverse effect on brain function, problem solving, learning and memory, with the strong indication that in certain people its repeated use can lead to psychosis (this happened to the son of friends of ours, who ultimately committed suicide).

I carry no brief whatsoever in support of tobacco, but let's not promulgate the ill-informed view that cannabis is harmless. I don't see that the legality of tobacco makes (to refer back to Rob's original point) a criminal out of anybody. The illegality of cannabis has certainly made criminals out of suppliers, and with some good reason.

As for walking naked down the the street, isn't it illegal to scare the horses?

Really, Biff, if those are the best you can come up with as a canon of laws that support Rob's original assertion*, I suggest that you're scraping the bottom of a very shallow barrel.

* "A lot of laws are brought about to gain popularity and/or votes and dont really do any good at all except to make criminals out of other wise perfectly decent human beings."

Let's not promulgate the ill-informed view about cannabis, alcohol is far worse than cannabis.
The facts are absolutely clear.

 

[philpjuk100]

the law that makes smoking cannabis, which kills approximately nobody, illegal while allowing the smoking of tobacco that kills approximately zillions.

Or what about the law that prevents people walking naked down the street? I may not wish to do it myself (you'll be relieved to hear) but I don't see why it has to be illegal.

Well, firstly, there is no law that makes smoking tobacco legal. There is simply a lack (largely for historical reasons) of a law that makes it illegal - except in a large number of places. In the case of cannabis, the deleterious effects of it are not yet completely understood, but it has been shown to have an adverse effect on brain function, problem solving, learning and memory, with the strong indication that in certain people its repeated use can lead to psychosis (this happened to the son of friends of ours, who ultimately committed suicide).

I carry no brief whatsoever in support of tobacco, but let's not promulgate the ill-informed view that cannabis is harmless. I don't see that the legality of tobacco makes (to refer back to Rob's original point) a criminal out of anybody. The illegality of cannabis has certainly made criminals out of suppliers, and with some good reason.

As for walking naked down the the street, isn't it illegal to scare the horses?

Really, Biff, if those are the best you can come up with as a canon of laws that support Rob's original assertion*, I suggest that you're scraping the bottom of a very shallow barrel.

* "A lot of laws are brought about to gain popularity and/or votes and dont really do any good at all except to make criminals out of other wise perfectly decent human beings."

Let's not promulgate the ill-informed view about cannabis, alcohol is far worse than cannabis.
The facts are absolutely clear.

Is that not a case for banning alcohol not legalising cannabis?

 

[Lime]

Is that not a case for banning alcohol not legalising cannabis?

Yes it is.

But that is neither here nor there.
The comments referring to cannabis stem from this assertion:

A lot of laws are brought about to gain popularity and/or votes and dont really do any good at all except to make criminals out of other wise perfectly decent human beings

Cannabis laws do make criminals out of otherwise perfectly decent human beings, just as prohibition made criminals out of drinkers.

 

[Flyfisher]

Let's not promulgate the ill-informed view about cannabis, alcohol is far worse than cannabis.
The facts are absolutely clear.

Is it really? Are they?

It's an interesting subject. I understand (and tend to agree) with the sentiment that alcohol is far worse than cannabis, especially in a social context. A walk around any moderately lively town centre in the early hours will often reveal the aggressive anti-social effects of alcohol, but I suspect that this is because alcohol is far more widely used than cannabis so the opportunities for real abuse is much higher.

Like so many 'drugs', cannabis and alcohol have Jekyll & Hyde characteristics. Both have beneficial medicinal effects in moderation but can also cause significant harm when consumed to excess. The legal status of alcohol almost certainly contributes to its excessive consumption, compared to cannabis, making it visibly 'worse' than cannabis in the public eye.

 

[Lime]

Let's not promulgate the ill-informed view about cannabis, alcohol is far worse than cannabis.
The facts are absolutely clear.

Is it really? Are they?

Perhaps an opinion that many prefer was silenced:

Until the last government induced them to think otherwise by making cannabis a target, the police have always taken the view that cannabis users were much less prone to violence than those intoxicated with alcohol. Indeed the police were strong supporters of the ACMD recommendation to downgrade cannabis to Class C in 2004. It seems likely that the recent rise in alcohol intake in the UK may have been in part due to the pressure of anti-cannabis policing leading to young people switching their preferred intoxicant to alcohol.

Estimating the true relative harms of alcohol and cannabis is not easy as there are no societies today where the two drugs are equally available. However where neither are legal – as in some Islamic states – alcohol appears to cause more dependence than cannabis, even in Morocco a traditional cannabis growing country.

Taken together we estimate that alcohol is at least twice as harmful to users than cannabis and 5 times more harmful to society. The obvious conclusion is that the current legislation criminalising cannabis users is illogical as well as inhumane and may be causing much more harm than it does good.

http://profdavidnutt.wordpress.com/2011/09/

 

[Flyfisher]

Ah yes, good point about the Prof Nutt affair - I'd forgotten about that. A masterclass in not letting facts get in the way of politics. :wink:

Cannabis laws do make criminals out of otherwise perfectly decent human beings, just as prohibition made criminals out of drinkers.

Unless, of course, the definition of a 'perfectly decent human being' is someone who doesn't break any laws. :wink:

But joking aside, I understand the basic point and I agree that many laws have arbitrary boundaries. For example, I've read that the government is consulting on raising the national speed limit to 80mph, which would suddenly make a lot of the drivers on our motorways 'perfectly decent human beings'. :wink:

A more controversial example might be the age of consent laws making paedophiles out of otherwise 'perfectly decent human beings'.
Marrying at 14 was quite commonplace not so many decades ago and is widely argued as being appropriate even today:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent_manifestations_%28UK%29

While searching for links I was also surprised to find that the age of consent in Spain is 13 even today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

The law can, indeed, sometimes be a blunt instrument, which is presumably the reason for a usually wide range of available punishments available to the courts.

 

[robgil]

Didnt the government sack their advisor for saying cannabis was harmless right before election time?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/01/drug-adviser-les-king-quits
I believe it is harmless unless you are already susceptible to or suffering from psychosis or depression, I n which case dont smoke the stuff.
As for this scraping the bottom of the barrel I would see 25 million Americans per year more like scraping the surface of quite a lot of barrels.
http://norml.org/marijuana

It would seem the government know they are misinformed but have already dug their hole, and they are selling votes to the slippers and socks brigade as a result.

edit = took me ages to type that.
on a brighter note the sale of goods act means I can get my computer fixed.

 

[Flyfisher]

It would seem the government know they are misinformed but have already dug their hole, and they are selling votes to the slippers and socks brigade as a result.

I wouldn't dismiss the 'slippers and socks brigade' as being universally hostile to cannabis and other psychoactive drugs - after all, they all lived through the 60s, even if quite a few of them can't remember that time. :wink:

 

[Penners]

on a brighter note the sale of goods act means I can get my computer fixed.

Phew! Thank goodness for some laws, eh? :wink:

 

[biffvernon]

let's not promulgate the ill-informed view that cannabis is harmless.

Not me - I just pointed out that cannabis kills approximately nobody.

If you want another law from the barrel scrapings how about the whole collection surrounding banking and other financial services that make it perfectly legal to lend money with interest. Usury used to be illegal and still is in some places but our law makers found it more than convenient to allow the process of getting richer without lifting a finger if you are already rich.

(Actually I don't think there was a barrel deep enough to contain the legal framework of our financial system, it's spilling out all over the place.)

 

[Penners]

let's not promulgate the ill-informed view that cannabis is harmless.

Not me - I just pointed out that cannabis kills approximately nobody.

I think you've got your quotes in a twist there, Biff. That wasn't me. Not guilty. I wasn't there. I never dunnit. I was visiting my maiden aunt in Bournemouth and I've got witnesses to prove it.

 

[robgil]

on a brighter note the sale of goods act means I can get my computer fixed.

Phew! Thank goodness for some laws, eh? :wink:

Its just a shame Penners that Comet choose to ignore and abuse this law and usually only admit fault when threatened with court.
Acer on the other hand were very much clued up about it all.

 

[skier-hughes]

you obviously never needed a business loan Biff, unlike myself, who wouldn't have been so succesful if I hadn't had a helping hand from the bank at the beginning, or a mortgage to buy your house?

 

[robgil]

Let's not promulgate the ill-informed view about cannabis, alcohol is far worse than cannabis.
The facts are absolutely clear.

Is it really? Are they?

It's an interesting subject. I understand (and tend to agree) with the sentiment that alcohol is far worse than cannabis, especially in a social context. A walk around any moderately lively town centre in the early hours will often reveal the aggressive anti-social effects of alcohol, but I suspect that this is because alcohol is far more widely used than cannabis so the opportunities for real abuse is much higher.

Like so many 'drugs', cannabis and alcohol have Jekyll & Hyde characteristics. Both have beneficial medicinal effects in moderation but can also cause significant harm when consumed to excess. The legal status of alcohol almost certainly contributes to its excessive consumption, compared to cannabis, making it visibly 'worse' than cannabis in the public eye.

You could say the same about marmite, mangos, water, etc etc. There are no laws against stupidity, unfortunately. :lol:

 

[Flyfisher]

Does marmite, mangos and water really cause aggressive behaviour on the streets after midnight?
I confess to enjoying them all without any adverse effects.
Perhaps you meant a combination of all three, which I agree would be rather stupid and should have a law against it

 

[biffvernon]

you obviously never needed a business loan Biff, unlike myself, who wouldn't have been so succesful if I hadn't had a helping hand from the bank at the beginning, or a mortgage to buy your house?

Of course I have benefited from these laws. That doesn't make them good laws. My point has been that laws are made by those who benefit from them. I include myself within that class of citizens. My grandfather was an MP, whose job was to pass laws; my father was a civil servant, whose job was to draft laws. They were, of course, acting in the best interests of their son/grandson.

Mind you, my grandfather was actually very much against usury and put his money where his mouth was by making substantial interest free loans to folk he considered deserving.

 

[Lime]

Does marmite, mangos and water really cause aggressive behaviour on the streets after midnight?

?
Cannabis doesn't either.

 

[robgil]

Does marmite, mangos and water really cause aggressive behaviour on the streets after midnight?

Nope, neither does cannabis, but taking any of them in any great quantity might give you belly ache.
I think the people who sell booze to people who have obviously had enough should be prosecuted but it is something we seem to perceive as normal.

 

[robgil]

Does marmite, mangos and water really cause aggressive behaviour on the streets after midnight?

?
Cannabis doesn't either.

Damned keyboard!1

 

[Flyfisher]

I was thinking about alcohol rather than cannabis. Perhaps the police should hand out hash cookies at emotive football matches and close all the nearby pubs? Mind you, people would then probably think 'yeah, whatever', and not bother to watch the match at all. :lol: