Can we have a fire safety talk?

[JoceAndChris]

Let's just say I heard a hissing and a roaring and smelt smoke, what to do? What size fire do you tackle yourself (in the garden I manage huge infernos) and at what size do you run away? Do you grab your most precious things?

If the fire is in an electrical socket - what do you do? Do you have to turn stuff off at the consumer unit?

If the fire is in one room, you shut the door to that room, right?

What do you do with a burns victim?

 

[Nigel Watts]

Are you OK?

For burns I would recommend 999, A&E or a call to NHS Direct depending on seriousness.

Isolating the circuit in question from the fusebox would seem sensible. Dont use water on a live electrical fire (CO2 is what should be used, but most people wont have a CO2 extinguissher in the home). If the circuit is switched off, and you are sure it is off, I guess you could use water but if in doubt call the fire brigade.

Shutting the door keeps the smoke at bay, reduces the air flow and slows the progress of any fire, so this is a good idea. Blocking any gap under the door is also a good idea.

 

[robgil]

a foam extinguisher down stairs and a water one upstairs. this is the height of my fire control although i plan to get a fire blanket in the kitchen also , as soon as ive got a cooker. or a kitchen , which ever comes first.

edit - those fire alarms with the built in lights look quite handy.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Are you OK?

Yes, fine- just a bit worried about my electrickery. When it rains heavily it trips out, all the sockets anyway. (I'm left with a few lights). The consumer unit is inaccessible, to me, so I can't do anything to switch it back on when it happens. This sometimes leaves me without the Internet for hours on end!!! :shock: :shock: :shock: Not to mention more banale things like cups of tea.

Then I smelt burning last night in the top bedroom. I'm hoping it was in my imagination.

I must get some extinguishers and fire blankets. Christmas is slightly worrying when there are little children running around, fires blazing, and everyone distracted. I do have fire guards though.

 

[Feltwell]

Joce, without being too much of a killjoy, it sounds like sorting out your electrics needs to move right to the very top of your priority list! Everything tripping out when it rains heavily? That's not good. Not much point in lovely decorating if the house burns down, and if the chicken coop is close by you may have roast chicken! And don't forget that sorting out electrics may well destroy any decorating that has been done, if walls need to be chased out.

The usual advice in the event of fire is Get Out, Call Fire Brigade out, Stay out. Precious possessions are terrible to lose, being overcome by fumes trying to retrieve them is worse. Personally, I've got a fire blanket in the kitchen (grill pan fire a few years ago....) and radio-linked smoke alarms throughout the house, with a heat alarm in the kitchen.

Have you got smoke alarms? And, do they work??

One of other parents at my daughter's school is a fireman. Chatting to him the other day, he was saying that the number of actual genuine serious fires they get called to (as opposed to Chavs setting fire to wheelie bins or Ford Fiestas) has decreased dramatically, as domestic and commercial electrics have got much better and so many smoke alarms have now been fitted. Smoke alarms don't stop fires of course but it does mean that they are detected earlier and are therefore easier to put out with much less risk to life.

He says they spend more time on traffic accidents these days.

 

[Flyfisher]

Our power used to trip reasonably frequently, which I assumed was due to rain leaking in through the roof, although it didn't always coincide with a rain storm but I assumed it took a while for the water to penetrate wherever it was penetrating. Such tripping is a nuisance but not necessarily a bad thing if it's protecting things, but it's indicative of something not quite right. Bear in mind that the various protection devices (RCDs, MCBs etc) can't protect against all fault conditions. Fortunately, since the roof has been fixed and some electrical work undertaken to tidy things up, we don't seem to experience nuisance tripping anymore.

Were you able to home in on the burning smell at all? Did it smell 'electrical'? (difficult to describe but once experienced never forgotten - sort of an acrid small). If you think it is electrical it might be worth removing sockets and light switches from their housings to check for any signs of burning (switch off the power first). Why is the consumer unit inaccessible to you? This may be inconvenient when things trip out but could be more serious if you do have a problem and need to switch things off. Although a fire might be 'electrical' to start with, if you can turn off the power then I don't see why water should not be used to deal with the consequences. Indeed, if you don't turn off the power then the heat source may remain and even a CO2 extinguisher will be little use.

Fighting fires is a specialist topic of its own and I'm pretty sure the fire professionals would say don't tackle anything unless you can do so in perfect safety (whatever 'perfect' means in this context). Of course, this wouldn't stop most of us trying something but my main concern in such a situation would be to ensure I had a quick and easy way out before tackling any fire. Fortunately, I've never had to test this theory, so it's easy to say. Also consider that few of us can be totally sure how we'd react in the heat (excuse the pun) of the moment, but I'm sure it's a good thing to think about such things. It's also recommended to think through an escape plan in case a fire does occur. This should include contingency plans in case stairs are cut off.

 

[Nigel Watts]

Joce glad to hear you are not hurt.

I agree with Feltwell that a priority must be to focus on your electrics, and with Flyfisher on the escape route issue. We have all become so security conscious now (often enforced by Insurance companies) that windows and doors will often all be locked with keys.

If there is a fire at night, the house is full of smoke and you cant remember where you left the keys what would you do? Bolting and chaining one exit door in such a way that it is secure from the outside yet capable of being opened from the inside without a key is one way of solving this.

The problem with CO2 fire extinguishers is that they are such fun to let off, and that it might be emptied after a raucous boozy evening!

 

[Ushy M]

Joce, this is advice from Mr M (who is an electrician)
First of all, if you smell burning you must make sure that you don't have a problem. Were there electrical appliances (including lights) in use in the room where you could smell burning? If yes, get an electrician to come and check - this shouldn't be expensive and could save an awful lot of money in the long run!

Secondly, your consumer unit should be easily accessible - what if you have a non-electrical fire and the lights go out for instance? Why can't you get to it?
As to "nuisance tripping", this is quite common in old houses - it doesn't necessarily indicate a serious problem, but should be investigated anyway. As has already been said, modern current protection devices are very sensitive and will respond even to high levels of moisture in the air. M has worked on old houses to find these faults - a particularly difficult one was a stone and thatch cottage that tripped after several days of rain - he had to work through every single socket making sure they were clean inside, as you get a build up of dust in older properties which when damp will conduct electricity. Also make sure that the earths are properly "sleeved" and cut back to the correct length so that not too much bare copper is showing. Sockets tend to be the culprits as there are more of them and they're nearer the floor and therefore the source of damp (and possibly dust if you've been sanding floors?). Time-consuming but it works.

Finally, get some small powder fire extinguishers - we got some from Aldi recently as, like robgil, we have an insurance requirement to have one on each floor. These should be placed near the doors so you can get them quickly and you can get out. If the worst happen and you do have a fire that you think you can't tackle safely, grab your phone and get yourself and Lord Rochester promptly out of the house and dial 999 from outside.

 

[christianb]

You should definitely get in an ELECSA or NICEIS certified sparky in as soon as possible. Or quicker.

They'll do a "Periodic Test" which will identify problems quite rapidly. This will put your mind at ease a little more at the very least.

Hope it all works out tickety-boo.

C.

 

[robgil]

these guys are really cheap for fire stuff.

http://www.fireprotectiononline.co.uk/fire-extinguishers/?gclid=CNLK4vbk3Z4CFeZr4wodzVYzJw

i went for the 9kg and 9 litre ones ,i thought it best to have too much than not enough.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thank you so much for all the kind help, advice and sympathy.

It's really difficult to explain why I can't get to the consumer unit and Chris can. It's not really about heights, more about hips. :lol: I reckon you'd have to be Kate Moss to do it. Chris manages because he's a dreadful show off, the type who'd always have to go on the tightrope and the unicycle. I don't think there are many electricians who could get to the consumer unit either.

The consumer unit is housed in the exceedingly damp lean to. (Remember the electrickery was installed as a DIY job by previous owner) It's opposite the little window in this picture.

To get to the upper level of that lean-to you have to shimmy along a ledge, it's about 10 inches wide. There's nothing to hold onto. If you fell, you'd tumble down the lower level and hit the concrete floor of the lower scullery.( If you were really unlucky, you might land on the well cover, which is a bit rotten, and go headlong first into the bowels of the earth! :lol: ) The ledge is just seen in the middle right of this picture.

and it's on the left of this picture, with the consumer unit on the right.

Sorry the pics are rubbish, too dark to do any better.

No, Feltwell, there aren't any smoke alarms here.

Ushy M - thank you so much for that pratical advice. Chris, and his dad (who managed a nuclear power station), will not allow a professional in. Too much pride. The dad is here next week and will no doubt prefer to fix it than relax.

I've been up to the burning smelling bedroom, I don't think it smells electrical, more like woodsmoke - so maybe it's just from the wood fires.

I'll order some fire extinguishers. Thanks again.

Also, at night, and sometimes if I'm not expecting anything, the gate is locked. How would any emergency services get in if I were hiding in the woodshed from an axe murderer or dying of smoke? It's a really sturdy huge welded farm gate with a padlock. I've been trying to source a combination lock so that I could at least give out the code but I have not found any lock to fit the hasp. (new word 8) )

 

[JoceAndChris]

If there is a fire at night, the house is full of smoke and you cant remember where you left the keys what would you do? Bolting and chaining one exit door in such a way that it is secure from the outside yet capable of being opened from the inside without a key is one way of solving this.

The problem with CO2 fire extinguishers is that they are such fun to let off, and that it might be emptied after a raucous boozy evening!

:lol: Mmm, I think so too! I have the key close by to every window - no problem at all, in this house, to open a window and jump out.

 

[chuckey]

I, get your carpenter to make a trapdoor that more or less fills the "space" and hinge it on the wall adjacent to the door. This way when it drops down it will rest on the opposing ledge. Arrange a hook and a piece of string to hold it vertical when not in use.
2, Smell of burning in bedroom, electrical connections don't get hot unless they are carrying current. So check exactly what items at being powered when you smell burning. As said, its most likely that its a power circuit. Its most likely that in the back of a socket there is a loose connection. I once had to tighten up about 30% of the terminals in the power sockets in a new build house.
A safe way to proceed is first to check the fuse box, the power fuses are coded red or they will be 32 A breakers(switches). With a table light go round and check that all the sockets work. Pull out one fuse go round again, hopefully the fuse labeled "upstairs power", will only effect the upstairs power, make a note of findings. Repeat for "downstairs power", "kitchen etc. If it makes sense then proceed else call in a sparky.
Buy (<£10) a multi meter that measures ac volts, most multi range meter do, it will have two lots of voltage ranges, one marked with a - over little dashes (DC) the other ~ over little dashes (AC), I looked at one about a hour ago for £4.95.
Now pull out fuse for upstairs power, unscrew the front of socket, the screws will come right out. Bend out top of front about 1/2", switch your meter to 250 or 300 V AC (~_ _). and touch one meter probe down "live" (red or brown wire) terminal, the other on the green/yellow terminal (doesn't matter which meter leads), there should be no reading. This shows your "live" wire is actually dead. remove probes. Switch the meter to 10 (12) or the lowest AC volts and repeat the above testing the Black or blue wire terminal to the earth one. This normally shows a very small voltage say .2 to 5 V. This then confirms that your earth wire is continous. If it reads 220V retire and phone up a sparky. Now inspect the wires, there should be no browning of the PVC and the wires should be tight. There should be no bad corrosion. There should be two wires to each of the three terminals. If there are more (or less) make a note. Replace the front (could be stiff to push back- your are bending the cables). If all is well, move on to the next socket. Eventually you should find something wrong, loose wires, burnt PVC, socket with smoke marks on front panel. what to do:- loose wire - tighten screw, burnt PVC, providing the PVC is not melted right up into its outer cover*, replace the socket and put sleeving (correct colour please!) over old PVC. A bad contact within the socket has caused the contacts to over heat and the heat has conducted up the wire and burnt the PVC. When replacing a socket, it is helpful to take the old one with you to the shop (big shed store?) and try and buy one with a similar terminal layout. NOTE the L (red and or brown) and N (black or blue) terminals and the earths (green or green/yellow) are connected to a terminal rivetted to some metal work.
To check the trips due to moisture, it could be that the water is actually running in down your incoming mains connection, just look for signs of water ingress. With consumer units the normal way of inspecting these is to switch off the big switch(incoming breaker), and undo 2 screws for modern MCB units or pull out all the fuses, and undo two screws and the front cover and inspect interior for sign of water ingress.
Sounds tedious, but only takes 5 minutes per socket.
* if the cable is showing signs of burning/overheating including the outer sheath, then this piece of cable must be replaced, its a real pain. The whole does not normally need to be replaced unless it has the incorrect rating (compare size with other cables), merely say a foot cut of and replaced with a new piece of cable.
Sorry to hear of your problems.
Frank

 

[Carol]

First you need to get smoke detectors this weekend, please, Joce! Then locate a decent electrician and get them to do a survey. You ought to be able to get a new consumer unit in a get at-able place fitted with shut off thingys (someone else will do the technical bit) so your power is stoppable in emergencies.

Having nearly gone up in a blaze of glory in our last Edwardian place due to interesting wiring ( arc-ing down the mains gas pipe....) I think this is a BIG priority.

You know you will sleep better!

Fire extinguishers are useful but only if you are able to use them in time.

 

[robgil]

in that first picture , is that rain water downpipe creeping around the roof like that? sorry, i have a 'thing' for rain water goods at the moment.
can you reach the consumer unit with a step ladder or hop up?

 

[Schoolmarm]

That smell you describe, woodsmoke, sounds like the smell I think of as smoked fish smell. It is off dodgy electrics of all types.

Please don't switch anything on in that room until it has been checked.

 

[Flyfisher]

Buy (<£10) a multi meter that measures ac volts, most multi range meter do, it will have two lots of voltage ranges, one marked with a - over little dashes (DC) the other ~ over little dashes (AC),

I wouldn't recommend this approach to anyone who doesn't really know what they're doing - and if they do they'll know all about what sort of meter to use.

Now pull out fuse for upstairs power, unscrew the front of socket, the screws will come right out. Bend out top of front about 1/2", switch your meter to 250 or 300 V AC (~_ _). and touch one meter probe down "live" (red or brown wire) terminal, the other on the green/yellow terminal (doesn't matter which meter leads), there should be no reading. This shows your "live" wire is actually dead.

No, No, No !!!

All it actually shows is that there is no voltage between the terminals. How do you know that the earth terminal is actually connected to a good earth? If it isn't (quite possible with faulty wiring) then the meter will show zero volts even if the live conductor is live. Touch such a wire and you'll get a shock.

 

[Flyfisher]

How would any emergency services get in . . .

I suspect they carry all sorts of gizmos to cut through all sorts of things, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

If you're particularly concerned, it might be worth contacting your local fire station. They usually have a fire prevention officer, or will know of the nearest one, who can offer advice and may even come out to visit and offer general fire safety advice. Don't worry about calling them, I'm sure they rather come out to dispense advice in return for tea and biscuits than come out on a real 999 call.

I'd also really, really consider having a main switch put somewhere within easy reach.

 

[Feltwell]

I'd also really, really consider having a main switch put somewhere within easy reach.

It does seem that very little thought goes into electrrical installations sometimes. My consumer unit is located in the hallway, on full display - and so high up that, even though I'm over 6' tall, I can't reach the thing without standing on a chair (very convenient in the dark if a bulb blows and causes the circuit to trip!).

The electrician, for it was professionally installed for the previous owner, could just have easily put it in the airing cupboard upstairs - all the cables pass through there anyway.... :roll:

 

[Flyfisher]

I take your point about 'easy reach', but there's a difference between having to stand on a chair and not actually being able to reach the consumer unit at all, as in Joce's case.