Cables ? – A non-period property question

[michael]

Please forgive me, but could I break the rules briefly and ask just one non - period property question as I need to get my house back to a liveable condition?(Wife threatening)

I’m currently lifting floorboards and temporarily removing a few timber panels to update my early 19th century property with digital Aerial cable and Cat 5 computer cable in a number of rooms. I’ve already acquired 250 meters of digital aerial cable from the Aerial technician and I’m about to pick up 80 – 100 meters of Cat 5 Cable. (or should it be Cat 5e?)

Could I also use this Cat 5 cable to run an extension from my analogue phone point to an upstairs room or dose it have to be ordinary telephone (analogue) extension cable? This telephone point serves phone/fax and broadband.

Sorry, but I couldn’t find any answers on the internet and I really need to get this installed and the floorboards back down or I’ll soon be a single man without a period property.

 

[AMc]

You can use Cat5e cable to run normal analogue phones (my electrician is very keen to get me to do this) - from my experience of fiddling with structured cabling in office blocks then you use phone socket > RJ45 adapters at each end.

In the interests of user friendliness (mine and future owners) I plan on using network points for networking duties and phone points for the phone. IIRC it is possible to damage networking equipment and telephones by cross connecting the wiring so having incompatible sockets at each end seems sensible to prevent mishaps. If you use standard phone wire it will also be easier for a future occupant to work out what is what - it's cheap and available at the DIY sheds.
If you have standard telephone cable then I would run that with the network cable.

FWIW I'm running Cat6 cable as I it's going to be plastered in and I've been in too many offices with obsolete data networking the cost isn't that much higher.

 

[Flyfisher]

Yes, you can run telephone connections over cat5 or cat5e with no problem.

The typical method of installing data wiring is to 'star-wire' all the outlets back to a single point or 'hub'. If the main telephone socket is also located near the 'hub' then it can be easily patched through to the desired outlet(s). A standard telephone won't plug directly into the data outlet but you can buy small adaptors specifically for this purpose.

Assuming you also have broadband, the 'hub' is also the ideal location for your router as it will then be easy to connect to the telephone line and the data outlets.

I would recommend at least dual data outlets so that you can have a data and phone connection in every location. More than one data outlet is rarely required because it's very cheap and easy to add a local 4-port 'switch' if necessary and can usually be hidden under a desk.

Cat5e is actually a superseded wiring specification but unless you expect to have some advanced requirements I wouldn't worry about upgrading to Cat6 (or even cat7) because the sockets and connectors cost quite a bit more and installation requires a lot more care. Also, domestic lengths of cable runs will be typically much lower than the maximum specified 90m + 2x 5m patch cables, so performance is unlikely to be an issue for domestic applications. Cat5e will certainly handle gigabit ethernet quite happily, which should be more than plenty for most people.

 

[MdB]

Don't put any tight bends in the cable when installing.

 

[michael]

Many thanks AMc and Flyfisher. You’ve answered my question. I can’t go on about this too long or Ill be upsetting a few period property people!

I think I’ll have plenty of network cable left over to run an extension from the existing BT installed analogue phone socket to the new telephone /fax position upstairs (about 17meters)

I guess Cat 5 is now obsolete?

Some of the existing network points in my home are remaining and they are wired up with Cat 5. Will there be any incompatibility problems (i.e. with my server) if I run Cat5e or Cat 6 to the new computer points?

No more computer/telephone questions I promise.

 

[michael]

Thanks MdB. Advice noted

 

[Flyfisher]

Don't put any tight bends in the cable when installing.

Yes, a good principle for all wiring really. I think the actual spec is a 4-inch minimum bend radius.
Also, don't run close and parallel to mains wiring if you can help it. Also try to avoid fluorescent light fittings and big electric motors (not usually a problem in domestic situations!) Crossing mains wiring at right-angles is OK.

 

[Flyfisher]

I guess Cat 5 is now obsolete?

Pretty much, yes. You'll probably find it hard to find compared with Cat5e. There is very little difference between cat5 and cat5e wiring (only the twist ratios of the 4-pairs) and all the connectors are identical.

Some of the existing network points in my home are remaining and they are wired up with Cat 5. Will there be any incompatibility problems (i.e. with my server) if I run Cat5e or Cat 6 to the new computer points?

In practice, almost certainly not. If you're just running a standard 100Mbps LAN then it'll all interwork with no problems. The telephone service won't care either (it only actually requires Cat3 performance).

If you want to run Cat6, that's fine, but bear in mind you won't get full Cat6 performance unless you use Cat6 outlets and Cat6 patch cables. However, you almost certainly won't need full cat6 performance so this really won't matter in practice. That's why I said it's not really worth worrying about the difference between Cat5e and Cat6 in practice. Installing Cat6 cable, even with cat5e outlets, does give you the option for a full Cat6 system sometime later (and without replacing all the cable, which is the big deal in terms of disruption), but I'd say the advantage is minimal given that your short runs of Cat5e will easily support a Gigabit LAN anyway.

These days, networking systems are very forgiving. You can mix and match cables, outlets and patch leads and it will all still work. Realistically, the worst that will happen is that you'll get a lower than maximum possible speed. But even then, unless you're moving very large files across the LAN then you'll never notice anyway.

 

[AMc]

There is nothing wrong with cat5, for data alone I find 'g' wireless to be perfectly adequate. I'm installing Cat6 because I expect in the reasonably near future to be streaming High Definition video around the house so consistently high data speeds are important and some of the cable runs are quite long. I'm paying my electrician to install it all as part of the general renovation the difference in cable and socket costs isn't that significant compared to the labour of doing it twice.

I'm also running 4 cables to each point so I can avoid having switches all over the place - they need power packs draining a few watts per point and take up space which I don't have

 

[MdB]

.. and no matter how many access points you put in, there will never be one where you want it....

I'm going to put some cable in but not a lot as I've found wireless to do most things I want at the moment. When I was in the caravan which was too far away from the wireless link to be picked up, I found that home plug (http://www.solwise.co.uk/net-powerline-av-index.htm) worked very well. They are a bit expensive at the moment but did do the job and can be plugged in wherever there is a power point.

 

[Flyfisher]

I agree that if you're paying for the wiring system to be installed then the additional cost of cat6 over cat5e will be pretty small. I didn't go for quad outlets because of the extra size of the wall plates and few (of my) locations would ever need 4 data outlets. I agree that a local switch adds a bit more clutter, although any desk requiring 4 data outlets must already have a fair bit of clutter so one small LAN switch doesn't make much difference in my experience. The real pain, I find, is the lengths of all the cables under the desk plus the inevitable 4 or 6 way mains adapter. Power over Ethernet (PoE) promises to help eliminate many of those plug-in power packs, although it doesn't seem to be catching on as fast as I expected when first announced.

As for streaming HDTV, you might find it's not such a big deal because of the high levels of data compression. An SD digital video camera records data at 25Mbps and I can stream these files without problem over cat5e. An HD digital video camera actually records at about the same data rate because it uses a higher level of compression so, as far as streaming is concerned, HD is no more demanding than raw DV.

I find wireless g is fine for web-surfing and the like but it is noticeably slower when moving large files and it frequently causes juddering when video streaming (although audio streaming is fine).

I've also successfully used powerline/homeplug adapters for extending my network over the mains wiring to a few places where I didn't install data wiring. Speed is less than the fixed wiring but seems to be indistinguishable to wireless. A very useful addition to the 'IT armoury'.

As for this being a non-period property topic, structured wiring does have the advantage of being the most 'universal' and (forseeable) future-proof wiring scheme available so, once installed, it should not be necessary to further disrupt a property - in our lifetimes at least - which must be a good thing.

 

[Edwardia]

Er why not have wireless LAN to a router next to the master phone socket ?

 

[Jon Maine]

Er why not have wireless LAN to a router next to the master phone socket ?

In my instance a couple of 5' thick interior stone walls and a stone vault would mean having several repeaters

 

[Pford75]

IN our case...wireless simply doesn't extend to cover the whole house without repeaters. It's also not just a question of bandwidth, but latency, symmetry and jitter...depending on the application. For this reason, minimising 'hops' in the network is always a good idea.

I'm about to have Telepresence installed at home by my employers http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/ps9599/index.html....just need to source the network connection now!

When it comes to up/downloading from outside your house, most rural properties will be hamstrung by the poor quality of the local loop. It's disappointing to note that my customers in Morocco/Ukraine/South African townships have better quality broadband than we have in this country.

Interestingly, some countries (esp. in the Gulf) are now mandating network cabling within a property as an essential feature under their 'building regs'...they feel it is an essential component of their national infrastructure.

 

[Jon Maine]

We have gigabit cat 6 floodwired throughout, main complaint Netgear gst752t ( i think that right) installed in one wing apparently one of the greenest switches available sounds like a vacuum cleaner.

 

[Flyfisher]

It's disappointing to note that my customers in Morocco/Ukraine/South African townships have better quality broadband than we have in this country.

Yes, I've been involved in many EMEA region projects where the technical infrastructure is much more advanced than the UK. It's because they don't have our legacy of old technologies so they just 'leapfrog' us and install all the latest stuff while we can't even afford to replace all our old stuff. Meanwhile the recent government announcement for "Digital Britain" aims for 2Mbps broadband for all by 2012, which is pitiful really. It's quite frightening how quickly we're being left behind.

 

[Jon Maine]

It's quite frightening how quickly we're being left behind.

I can see the telephone exchange out the window, there cant be more than 300m of cable between me and them yet on an 8mb service we get a maximum of around 4mb and where the contention is bad we have sometimes been as low as dial up speeds or lower even.

 

[MdB]

I can see the telephone exchange out the window, there cant be more than 300m of cable between me and them yet on an 8mb service we get a maximum of around 4mb and where the contention is bad we have sometimes been as low as dial up speeds or lower even.

Might be able to help you with that as there is no reason why you shouldn't get close to 8Mb most of the time. Post who your ISP is and what your router stats are and I'll give you are few pointers if you are interested.

 

[Jon Maine]

Yes please, its idnet and are these the stats you wanted? dont believe the 7488kbps its not true.


Protocol ADSL State Showtime
Data Path Interleave
Operation Mode G.DMT

Downstream Upstream
Line Status ADSL Link Speed 7488 kbps 448 kbps
SNR 15.5 dB -
ATEN 8 dB 6 dB
Line Error ADSL layer FEC 0 3
CRC 2 0
ATM layer HEC 0 0
Frame Counter 342009 305021

Loop Distance: About 2 K ft.

 

[MdB]

Things that can reduce your speeds: Connection to exchange, Exchange contention, ISP contention.

Connection to exchange:
Interleave is on so you line has some noise on it but a synch speed of 7488kbps is close to (if not the) maximum you can get so it isn't causing too much problems. (Interleaving will increase your ping times but unless you are an avid gamer this isn't something to worry about)

Your synch speed might be variable though so it is worth running a BT speed test.
Go here and follow the instructions: http://www.speedtester.bt.com/
Post the results back here. They should look like this:
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 7392 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 6500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 5973 kbps

The important bit is the IP profile, if this is low then you have a noise issue on the line.

Exchange contention:
If the result from the above has a good IP profile but a poor actual throughput then there is contention at the exchange. Not much you can do about that. (Go to a LLU suppler (BE only, others are rubbish), Move house!)

ISP contention:
Idnet seems to have a bit of a mixed reputation. Some think it is excellent, others think it is poor. The BT test above, bypasses your ISP so good speeds there but poor speeds generally suggests an ISP problem.