Building Regs: Restaurants and damp walls

[Matt Green]

A colleague is looking at a job at the moment where a restaurant wants to convert it's cellar into a dining area.

The conservation officer is being a shade prickly by not permitting tanking, membrane systems or even lime plaster as it would harm the face of the stone. Building is Grade II listed. The current thought is to glass-off a section of the cellar and regulate the environment behind it. Having looked at the salt assemblages from the walls and environmental data, the sheer number of variables that would have to considered are making this look nightmarish.

The architect stated that there is a building regulation pertaining to wet walls in eating areas. Does anyone have any ideas? Anything stopping them applying repeated layers of limewash for example?


Cheers,


Matt.

 

[Ian Bond]

Anything stopping them applying repeated layers of limewash for example?
Matt.

A cellar's a perfect place for limewash (breathable and hygienic) . Doesn't sound like a good place for a dining room though.

If they just want to make the walls look nice(r), and not trap moisture in them causing damage, then limewash is OK.

 

[Ian Bond]

And water would still be coming through the walls...

Has your colleague got a cunning plan to dehumidify and ventilate? And deal with all the moisture generated by the diners &c ?

It does sound like a nightmare.

 

[grays85]

contact a company protectahome in redditch ask for richard he'll advice you.. he has done a winebar which was a converted cellar similar to "the Cavern" looks real pretty, but I'm sure other companies do damp proofing.. why is the architect so against the idea?

 

[Nemesis]

The building in question is Grade II listed...

 

[Matt Green]

contact a company protectahome in redditch ask for richard he'll advice you..

I'd rather chew my own pancreas than speak to that particular company, thanks all the same.

The point is that I CANT advise them to tank it, not that I don't know how to. What I need to know is what it is possible to do, I already KNOW what I cant do.


:evil:

 

[Matt Green]

And water would still be coming through the walls...

Has your colleague got a cunning plan to dehumidify and ventilate? And deal with all the moisture generated by the diners &c ?

It does sound like a nightmare.

Yeah, pretty much. The idea is to create a chamber next to the wall, separated by a glass wall. We don't want to dehumidify, we want to humidify the face of the wall to keep ground salts in solution to stop them damaging the decorative face of the stone.

Condensation and access for cleaning and debris removal are making us rethink what we can do.

Tricky.

Matt

 

[Nemesis]

Yes, I looked up that particular company, and it does seem that the treatments they deal in may not be those which anyone with an interest in conservation and conservative repair would be using on a historic building.

 

[Ian Bond]

It sounds like a grand cellar. Is the masonry finely dressed, and in its natural state (never been limewashed)?

Certainly sounds like the CO is very keen to protect it. I don't suppose he/she has any other suggestion than don't do it, leave it as it is.

Probably with very good reason, if you are worried about damaging the surface of the stone.

Can't see how limewash would help with this one. Or the attraction of dining in a cellar.

 

[grays85]

I'd rather chew my own pancreas than speak to that particular company, thanks all the same.

what happened , why that attitude.. theyre the company that are doing my cellar :shock:

they've worked with me.. all the way, have agreed to maintain the walls so that the process can be reversed if it should ever be required..??!

what have i missed, I tried a few others before picking them.. oh dear???? what have i done??? :?

 

[Nemesis]

Well, Matt clearly isn't too enamoured...

 

[grays85]

hi nem.. just a bit concerned that i've missed something in the small print or something....

 

[Nemesis]

Tell me what advice you have received.

And consider Dr Matt i(PhD) s one of conservation's good guys.

 

[grays85]

hi

see my posting on Tanking post.... i thoughtit seemed as i was doing things right. i seemed to get Dr Matts approval..... dang its cold..

 

[Nemesis]

However - in other cases (apart from yours...) it may be certain treatments meted out are not what Matt would recommend.

So maybe he has cause for concern.

 

[Matt Green]

Someone from that company posted a long, long time ago on the old forum about how they had 'saved' Brighton Pavillion from a 'so called' damp expert through the use of some treatments that would be frowned upon were they to be tabled now. I kept a print out for posterity.

We've run into them at Barry Town Hall (listed) and Knightstone Island (listed) where they have put in chemical DPCs and recommended and/or actually treated for Dry Rot with wall irrigation.

They are a remedial company and make money from selling products. They are BWPDA members and have been in business for a while so they must be competent at what they do. They can do whatever they like to non-listed buildings and in the case of your basement I'm sure they will install they cavity drainage membrane in accordance with BS:8102 and things will go well.

When it comes to listed buildings, profit should come second to conservation in my opinion: and it is my opinion at not necessarily that of my company.

You can see, then, that it was a bit galling when asking people whom I know have an interest in conservation and work in the industry about a specific building regulation relating to basement waterproofing that the poster above mis-reads what I wrote and then tells me I should contact a sales company with a history of 'down-playing' building conservation and who don't have the highest opinion of the company I work for (which is fair enough: our business models are different, and we may have cost them money in the past).

So, nothing against them per se, just not the most informed recommendation in this case. No offence all round, mutual wariness of each others approach to listed buildings: carry on.

Thanks to a private message I now have a link to Part C 5(i) and can appriciate what the architect is trying to achieve in the basement that my colleague is looking at. We have a plan to keep everyone happy now, we think.

Thanks for the responses.


Matt Green

 

[Nemesis]

I recently attended a performance at the newly revamped Live Theatre in Newcastle, which is in a series of converted listed buildings.

In the old days the bar was in the auditorium. In the revamp, while drinks can still be taken into the performance space, the bar has been moved.

Part of the drinking area has been (IMHO) beautifully repaired - was the undercroft of a bonded warehouse.

All exposed walls have been left pretty much as found, a mix of stone and brick from various centuries. Electrical wiring is through conduit, so little disturbance of 'historic fabric'. Battered flagstones have been left as found, wobbles and all.

Yet all along the bottom of these historic walls is a tell-tale line of holes - injection 'damp proof course', of dubious use and causing damage which can now never be reversed.

Sigh.

 

[Matt Green]

It happens all the time. The Round Foundry development in Leeds it a great reuse of an industrial building and the roof timbers have been retained with little loss.

Still has a chemical DPC though, out brief didn't cover a damp survey in that instance.

It's not a workmanship problem, a problem with a particular company or business practice: its more ingrained. The BWPDA magazine (back when it was half good) had examples of irreversible treatments of listed buildings in it because there is a genuine belief that such methods 'save' the buildings.

A listed shop in a Georgian City: the CO wont let the owners extend at the rear of the shop as it's in a conservation area. Go inside and the rear of the place has been stripped of all plaster and all the walls irrigated for dry rot that died years ago. We tell them not to worry or do any more treatment works for the dry rot. They reapplied cement plaster all through the ground floor, then paniced after the recent flooding and drilled through it to install a cavity membrane system as well.

At least DPC injections go into mortar courses these days, dry rot wall irrigation is more damaging and a lot less forgivable. It's mercenary profiteering and vandalism of the highest order.


Matt

 

[grays85]

Wow, fair enough then Matt , your opinion is fairly well backed up..

It is a point that I've been regulaly viewing the discusssions and I knew what I was after and as such they havent had to sell me anything...
I knew i didn't want a Dpc as this would cause me issues, and the
C/o was kept informed of what they were doing, so in a way its down to the forum and people like yourself and nem' that i was aware of the issues to come across, .. I think my cellar will benefit from the system being installed, especially as i'm going to be there watching them... :? the cellar is on a grade II listed farmhouse..

sorry if i caused you offence, I should appreciate who i'm talking to :wink:

 

[Nemesis]

At least DPC injections go into mortar courses these days

Sadly, not in the case mentioned - straight into brick and stone, in a straight line a couple of inches off the floor.

Put me off me beer. Two SPAB members in deep shock...