Black Beams - Paint removal

[Toby Newell]

Thanks for the advice, im not sure how to insert pictures though.

I have 3 rooms all with beams on ceiling and walls, the house was built in 1624 and was originally 3 cottages and 2 barns, there is a real mix of beams some are old ships beams as there are markings, some are what can only be described as tree trunks. A few are flat and smooth but lots are very knurled or rough texture. They are painted with gloss back paint.

I wont sand blast them as i know thats awful, but 2 different methods seem to be sold as safe for the wood, using pumice and steam (farrow) and the other im not sure (protinus)

To strip the lot would take me years im guessing.

Wow. 1624. Ship beams???!!! Markings... wow, please be careful, sounds wonderful and well, just more wonderful, It is a lot of hard work but beneath that paint probably lies the most beautiful timber you may have ever seen. That's analogous to life though isn't it? If you want a very high reward you normally are going to have to put forth a high amount of effort. It wouldn't take you years, may be a few weekends but I am one hundred percent sure you will be glad you did.

You may want to try a blasting method on the larger beams, or just scrape and sand, do not worry about the interstices why clean out every hole??? A little bit of dirt and black paint is fine, it's a centuries old beam! That's what we call patina! Who wants a clean as a whistle beam??? Much better to have a beautifully patinated beam or you could just fit casements with modern quick grown sappy oak thats why I do not favour blasting.

And farrow, lol (not ironic, a real 'lol') Let's make it sound interesting. Pumice is an abrasive, it's mostly glass, Silicon oxide and Alumina another abrasive and the steam is high pressure so, go figure, its still damaging, just the marketing bods have done the M&S treatment on it... '...this isn't just blasting this is Farrow organic Italian pumice from mount Etna and steam blasting...' when pumice is ground up into a powder it is basically 80% sand with Aluminium oxide abrasive, ie Sand!!! as in sand blasting, the reason the marketing bods use the word 'pumice' is that pumice, in it's natural form is aerated via volcanic processes and floats on water so people may perceive it to be 'gentle' a rock that floats is gentle right? Wrong!!! Air is gentle, granted, but when ground up for blasting mmmm, all the air goes out.... also you can use it to rub skin off your feet so it must be gentle right? Wrong!!! Pumice is pretty much identical to sand, so pumice blasting, omg lol etc, is just a posh, misleading term for sand blasting. The key to the farrow system is the heat element, nothing more, most modern blasting methods use a sand and water mix to increase velocity and reduce dust creation (the water absorbs the dust) ALL blasting proponents will tell you their method is gentle, they have to, how would they sell their services otherwise? If you want to know how I know so much, apart from the 25 years in the wood restoration industry I took four years out to study materials engineering at Sheffield university, so, I have done sandblasting myself and seen it done in glass and steel factories and studied it, and how the abrasives are made, and looked at them under the microscope and in a mass spectrometer etc. (High fives the ghost of Bill Hicks - I HATE lying devious marketers, spin doctors and the spreaders of false information doom to them all - and btw I mean the marketers not you whiskey frank of course!)

So the farrow system. If you dont mind simultaneously sand blasting steaming and pressure washing your beams whilst flooding your house, worth a go, otherwise, maybe not.

Toby

PS My natural curiosity wants me to try out soda blasting now, I know what effect it is going to have on sound beams as my grandfather (a French polisher who taught me and was also a master bronzer and part time gilder too) used it when he was bronzing, albeit in a workshop, just mainly to see how ridiculous (or not) the containment and clean up would be. So if anyone has large, mainly sound beams and wants their beams blasted and then sanded perfectly smooth, shellacked and waxed professionally let me know...(the beams will need sanding back slightly to remove the furry texture and give a good base for the waxing, unless you like the fuzzy-felt look and feel) only you will have to wait until cooler weather as I imagine doing such work in these temperatures in all that protective equipment would be serious madness and I am trying hard to cut down on the serious madness element of my working life. PM me if you are interested anyone but note I will not be doing this in the summer! Anyone who does, good luck to them!

 

[plasticpigeon]

Why don't you just leave your phone number and a link to your website?

 

[Toby Newell]

because, dear plastic pigeon, although I have worked for Rob (who owns the site) and have written articles for the site, Rob has been very generous in linking to my website in the articles section and putting me in the advert section without me paying (the advert of which I have had not one call from btw!) I am not touting for work, just trying to offer free expert help and advice to people regarding wood restoration, which anyone who has met me will know I love. I have undertaken around six jobs for people who have found me on this site, all from my published articles, which I spent a lot of time writing, so I feel that is a fair quid pro quo. Even though in monetary terms the amount may not have been large overall the customers have been some of the most knowledgeable, kind and appreciative and the properties I have been able to work on have been some of the most historical, beautiful and interesting and consequently some of the most rewarding (and the most hard work) I am genuinely curious about how much mess soda blasting would make as I have specialist partitioning and dust extraction equipment but still the idea sounds frightening to me, thats all. It is not an area I wish to expand in my repertoire! Floor sanding and wood stripping in general is hard enough.

I have authored three expanded and very detailed articles which I have asked Rob if I should send in to the site or if a sticky could be made to link to my site and I am waiting for his reply.

Although many of the more established members on this forum know me and my motives I do not wish to be seen to be abusing Rob's generosity or to be seen to be acting unprofessionally, also, any advice I offer may be seen to be diluted somewhat if it were perceived that I were simply or partly touting for work. Sadly I have to refuse around 90% of the work I get offered as there is only one of me so, fortunately, aggressive marketing is not required.

A pm is only a click away! I feel that that is the appropriate thing to do.

If, on the other hand you were being facetious, implying I have already overstepped the mark then it must have flown over my head, please elaborate and if that is the consensus I will delete the post. I only undertake one beam sanding job a year or eighteen months as they are not money spinners and more a labour of love, indeed the last one I did I lost a lot of money on that part of the job and caused myself a lot of pain. I only do them when the property is very old, I think that the result will be worth the effort (look spectacular) and the customers really passionate about wood.

Toby

 

[dans]

All my beams were painted in a thick black creosote-type stain. Every single beam in my large 17thC farmhouse. We had almost all of them gritblasted. I had to think long and hard about that decision, because I knew tge results would be irreversible.

I must say that I am very pleased with the results. We had to spend some time smoothing them and bees waxing afterwards, but the results are very impressive.

I have since uncovered more beams in a different part of the house and roved the finish with kling strip. They come out lovely and if I had the time to do them all this way, I would have... But the difference is not that big.

You can tell the difference between the blasted beams and the kling stripped beams, where the blasted ones look a bit drier.

The mess from the blasters was very bad. You couldn't actually live in it, or even have furniture in it. You'd be clearing out dust for months after...

 

[Toby Newell]

Good to know, what I thought, its the mess really as the fuzzy felt look and feel can be solved by sanding with a small random orbital sander to give a perfectly smooth finish. Coating with a few coats of shellac before waxing will give a much higher build and better chatoyancy as you can only really apply one or two very thin layers of wax before it gets too thick, absorbs moisture and develops a 'bloom' this will make the timber look misty and opaque, it can be solved by redissolving the wax with a turps rag and rubbing in again every few months.

 

[DJH]

I think this is an excellent topic and whole heartedly agree with both Toby's lucid arguments and his enthusiasm on the subject which jumps out from the page. My only interest in timber is it's use for tools and, when I was working, for it's suitability as substrate for a particular roofing job. I don't need him to do any work for me at all well unless I happen across an old coffin which I might take a fancy too...

I have a few books written by Charles H Hayward one of them being called 'Staining and Polishing' (on it's 11th printing!) which I have yet to read. This topic has prompted me to do so. My paternal grandfather was a french polisher in Plymouth in the earlry part of the last century and I believe he worked in or for the dockyard there. The only thing I might have inherited from him is my love of a good finish on timber whether it be polish or paint.

I'm going to have a bash at it when I'm able.

Doug

PS Dont spulchcuk wurk any mor on yer?

 

[Toby Newell]

DJH to quote fom one of my articles on my site.

If you are interested in making your own chemical stains or just the history of them then I can heartily recommend hunting down a copy of the excellent "The Complete Manual of Wood Finishing" by Frederick Oughton which was required reading for all City and Guilds French polisher apprentices at the London School of furniture, at least when I was there. A wonderful book for anyone interested in wood finishing and it's history.

Excellent book and the historical references contain some really interesting concoctions.

T

 

[plasticpigeon]

Hi Toby,

It is always nice to have an expert, (and we are lucky enough to have a number of period property or restoration experts), on this forum who can give useful advice to people wishing to restore their home or possessions in the most appropriate way. Thank you for being so open with your knowledge, it is very informative and interesting. However I feel some of you responses come across as rather condescending with a fair amount of self promotion which does not come across as tasteful to me.

Also I consider myself to be reasonably knowledgeable about certain aspects of wood finishing, mainly on musical instruments because my father is a violin maker and I have watched him and picked a few things up. However I don't think I would dare give my opinion about wood finishing on this forum again as I am sure anything I write (unlike your beams) will get blasted. Likewise, because I do not consider myself beyond learning something new I would like to ask a question about furniture refinishing but I'm not sure I dare now. Any chance you could roll the tone off a little please??? People might disagree with you but that shouldn't be an issue.

P.S. As someone who is an expert wood finisher, with your name, contributing on a period property forum, if you do put up stickies about wood finishing, perhaps they should be called the Newell posts!!!

 

[andrew gayton]

Whilst I appreciate the removal of modern paint, I am far less convinced about the polishing of timbers that would not have been finished in this way originally. Perhaps also, timbers were exposed prior to painting - as was the 20th c fashion - when they were never intended to be exposed. Limewashing of expressed internal timbers is perhaps more authentic in the vast majority of cases. Ships timbers? thats another topic.

 

[Lime]

I think it is worth saying that there is no such thing as right or wrong when discussing old houses.
Almost certainly every variation in the book has been tried in the past and, unlike today, regional variations were profound.

However one aspect of house upkeep and repairs remains constant throughout history, namely the average house owner or tenant does absolutely nothing to maintain their home.
If push comes to shove they will then do either the absolute minimum they think they can get away with or move house.

 

[DJH]

Wise words Lime.

I think it's Toby's enthusiasm for the subject and his willingness to almost put himself between the 'blaster' and the object and sacrifice himself rather than let any damage be done to old timbers that maybe come over as condescension PP.

I'll look out for that book Toby.
Good one about the 'Newell Posts' though... :lol:

Doug

 

[Toby Newell]

However I feel some of you responses come across as rather condescending with a fair amount of self promotion which does not come across as tasteful to me.

I appreciate that I may come across as arrogant and / or condescending pigeon although that is not my intention. No one likes being told they are wrong and some people take it personally. If you re read all my posts I hope you will find that I always try and qualify my statements with the caveat that I am sure the information I may be contesting is usually imparted in good faith, that there is more than one way to skin a cat and that all opinions are valid. All I aim to do is give people another opinion. The reader can then assign his or her level of own relevance and usefulness of that opinion based upon factors such as experience and knowledge, they also may be encouraged to investigate a little deeper and find out for themselves the facts of the matter. What I am interested in above all pigeon is the facts. When someone expresses a falsehood either purposefully (like companies for example) or innocently via received wisdom or lack of knowledge is irrelevant.

Should I not tell people that pumice is identical to sand? So that they can decide whether pumice blasting is gentler than sand blasting which is what was suggested? So I can save one persons blushes? And why should they blush? Did they study materials science for four years? Have they seen five hundred and fifty year old oak beams in a Banbury cottage turned into weetabix by sandblasting and had to listen to a customer lament how he wish he had found me sooner? Not to sand his beams, but to advise him not to blast them, I do not understand. The person suggesting pumice blasting is doing so in good faith, I think me keeping quiet would be doing a disservice to them as well. I think most people would be happy I have maybe helped elucidate them to the fact that some blasting companies try and use creative marketing to drum up business. I think pigeon you may have to look into yourself as to why you feel threatened by someone taking the time to pass on his knowledge and advice, for free.

Fair amount of self promotion? pigeon. Come on. I know you have only been posting since 2012 but I have been on here since inception. Where is my telephone number? or the link to my site? Did you not read any of my posts? I have articles published on this site, people can find me or pm if they wish for work, but they don't, never have. Forumites like to do the job themselves!!! I have undertaken half a dozen jobs over six years all from people who have read my articles and have been impressed, presumably, at my knowledge and enthusiasm, this is kind of the quid pro point! I provide expert articles, written especially for this site I may add and over the years I have got one job per year, on average, but none, from my forum posts!!! I am proud to have my articles published on a site I respect so much and in turn is so well respected by others and yes it possibly helps my search rankings everso slightly, which I think is great as this site, in a small way is helping to support sympathetic craftsman of which there are few left. I do not like sanding beams, its an awfully hard messy job. So I do not self promote my services for financial reward. Self promotion as in setting myself up as the de facto wood restoration agony uncle? maybe, possibly, because I kind of am. Am I slightly arrogant? undoubtedly I am, is Gordon Ramsey a fantastic person? He seems like a little bit of a d**k despite himself, but he is a bl***y good chef, confident people who are good at what they do occasionally suffer from this affliction and my great grandfather (also a French polisher) was Scottish, so, go figure.

Do I respect other peoples opinions? Yes. Have you not seen my many posts congratulating JoceandChris doing their own floors totally differently to mine? I congratulate anyone taking the time and effort to do the job themselves which is why I have spent almost a year researching and writing expert articles on wood stripping, floor sanding and wood finishing, which is kind of why I popped back here after a long absence. I have just finished uploading these new articles to my website and I am very proud of them and thought the people who would gain the most benefit from them would likely be period property members and yet, I expressly did not provide a name or link!!! Is this the self promotion you elude to? Sorry, I am aware of my sardonicism, it is intentional but meant in good humour. Please note I am not upset or perturbed by your opinions and have not tried to ostracise or belittle you in any way, just defend myself and try and clarify my position, which I think is fair.

Will I denigrate anyone's advice on how to do something? No. Never. Will I try and dispel common held modern myths and received wisdom, like modern oil finishes are environmentally responsible and traditional (which they are not)? well yes I will. Then everyone can make up their own minds.

Also I consider myself to be reasonably knowledgeable about certain aspects of wood finishing, mainly on musical instruments because my father is a violin maker and I have watched him and picked a few things up. However I don't think I would dare give my opinion about wood finishing on this forum again as I am sure anything I write (unlike your beams) will get blasted. Likewise, because I do not consider myself beyond learning something new I would like to ask a question about furniture refinishing but I'm not sure I dare now. Any chance you could roll the tone off a little please??? People might disagree with you but that shouldn't be an issue.

P.S. As someone who is an expert wood finisher, with your name, contributing on a period property forum, if you do put up stickies about wood finishing, perhaps they should be called the Newell posts!!!

pigeon, why are you sure anything you say will get blasted? look back at my many posts, have I blasted anyone? no. Also, please do not take offence, but why exactly should you care what I think? And do you not think other people can make up their own mind on the usefulness of your advice? I only point out when people make obvious mistakes, that is all. Are you implying I consider myself beyond learning anything new? Really? That is a reverse engineered falsehood and presumption upon your part and a poor observation in my opinion, sorry, but it is, I am not upset but also I cannot let it go due to my unerring quest in all things for the facts. How did I become so knowledgeable? Or proficient in my craft? Through trying and failing and learning constantly, ironically which is why I am now curious re: soda blasting, not that I do not know what it can do but because I cannot imagine what the mess would be like and that intrigues me. My grandfather started at age 11 and continued for another 67 years, I will never be as good as him at polishing, simply impossible as he had more time to learn, I do however know more about him about sanding, because I have spent years and years experimenting, failing and trying again with new tools and techniques. The day one stops learning is the day you die. To suggest I think I know everything already is somewhat ironic as I get the impression people are only interested in my advice as they perceive that I have learnt from experience rather than secondhand information. My floor layer has many floors featured in The World of Interiors magazine and has laid floors for the Kennedy's and all over the world, he is undoubtedly the best floor layer I have ever met and surely one of the best in the country, totally self taught, he started off as a welder, he has no city and guilds nothing yet he knows more than most Architects, designers and large building companies, with all their Surveyors, degrees and professional qualifications, why??? Because he tried, failed and tried again and having a natural aptitude, tenacity, curious nature and being intelligent developed his own techniques and has become very proficient, knowledgeable and skilful. All through trial and error. Show me someone who thinks he knows it all and I will show you a loser.

So, to clarify, I will not tone down my opprobrium for disingenuous information however well intentionally propagated (any angst is always directed towards the manufacturer or instigator of the falsehood) this includes received wisdom and modern myths. Lime got upset because he started his statement with 'I can assure you' and then went on to make a statement that was factually incorrect. I pointed out that if you 'assure' someone you might want to be sure and only after he made a tetchy reply at my temerity to challenge his erroneous information. JoceandChris indicated that Georgian panels (including oak panels which was what was being discussed) were mainly painted, I pointed out that normally only pine ones were, Joceand Chris has not reacted indignantly, they have probably gone and researched it further.

I apologise for my 'occasional' verbosity and my forthright nature and whilst I respect your opinion regarding self promotion I do not agree with it and I think most forum members will agree with me on that, at least the ones who have been around as long as I have.

Finally please do not feel you cannot contribute as you fear I may shoot your every word down in flames, I would rather go away and never reappear than have that happen, this site is a repository for useful and interesting information and this lively, friendly and helpful forum is one of the best in the country and I am very pleased the way it is set up and run, if people ever feel I am detracting more than I contribute then I will leave without hesitation. I am sure you have just as much wisdom if not more than I to offer, please feel free to ask away.

And, sorry to correct you. That would be Newel posts, with one l. But then I would point that out wouldn't I?

Best (warmest, genuine and totally unironic) wishes

Toby

 

[Toby Newell]

. Limewashing of expressed internal timbers is perhaps more authentic in the vast majority of cases.

I would genuinely be very interested Andrew to find out where you get this information from that all beams would have been lime washed so I can research it for my articles, as I have no historical reference at present, a book name or peer reviewed historical article would be very helpful.

I am afraid I do not know myself. I have comparatively little experience of old beams and have not researched or read any books on the subject as it forms such an infinitesimal part of my work. I would be interested in finding out myself as I am interested in all things timber wise. In my albeit limited experience on the matter I have found that many of the older country cottages I have visited have had bare beams that have not had lime wash on them and do not look like they have ever been stripped, that is not to say they were not originally lime washed as lime wash can be washed off over the years and this is maybe what has happened, I do not know.

The little information I do know suggests that the hearth beam may not have been regularly lime washed due to it getting sticky (food grease / wood tar residue) covered in soot and requiring regular cleaning, it would of looked worse than natural and would have been washed off after a few weeks anyway. I am theorising here, but, I am thinking that may be the upright main beams and doorways may have not been lime washed for the same reasons, ie that they would get dirty via grubby hands very quickly and therefore would look worse than natural and be washed off quickly. (there were less sinks, less running water and people were dirtier and did dirtier jobs than now) May be just the smaller beams in the ceiling were lime washed as to cut in around them is a pain. This is just a theory. From my experience I would not be able to say one way or the other.

As regards to historical accuracy then I am not sure what would be best to advise. Personally there is normally a conflict between accuracy, sympathy and modern aesthetics, I try and err on the side of caution, deterring where possible heavy staining and try and promote more natural finishes, I also try and finish the older properties by gentler hand finishing techniques to preserve patination, but yes, if everyone blindly restored their houses to the original state I would have little work!

I can only give people my personal opinion and preferences even if it loses me work. For whilst I think polished floors, done with skill and care can look wonderful and not detract from a properties historical aesthetics (because many floors were partially unfinished originally) I do not like the idea of stripped pine doors or in fact stairs (apart from handrails and newels where appropriate which were often originally executed in hardwood or stained to resemble such) I decline many dozen jobs such as these every year, which presumably many other companies are more than happy to pick up, I just think it looks too busy and well, awful. Its a very personal thing.

As regards beams, my personal taste, whatever the historical accuracy, would be to lime wash the smaller beams in the ceilings / walls and possibly make a feature of the hearth beam, large bressummers and large uprights, this looks less busy to me, makes the often small rooms appear larger and allows ones eye to focus on the larger beams which often have spectacular colours, figure and depth. Yes, it may not be historically accurate, but it is a guilty pleasure, design and architecture follow the seasons as much as any other branch of fashion or design and I am sure if Robert Adam were alive today he would most definitely offer wood stripping as one of his many building services.

Toby

 

[DJH]

There's an interesting little article in The Georgian Issue 2 2011 titled 'Don't Sand It!' where cautionary advice is given about restoring and caring for old wooden floors. This advice in the whole is don't do it... Could this be true for beams also?

Being pedantic I understood bresummers were horizontal beams?

Doug

 

[Toby Newell]

Doug

The advice is, I have found, often written by people who have little experience or knowledge about the difference between what the vast majority of companies call 'sanding' which is frequently undertaken by lowly skilled, uncaring and unknowledgeable operators (and thus can be very destructive) and the attention that a caring wood restorer like a French polisher may employ and the results that they achieve which often are very surprising. The caring part of which often entails walking away from a lot of work which is something many operators find difficult to come to terms with.

However, as regards historical accuracy, even though I am not sure Andrew's assertion that all beams would have been lime washed is strictly true (although I have no idea either way really) I am fairly confident that the vast majority of beams in smaller country cottages would not have been sanded and polished especially as 'show wood' and that only the larger beams in churches, large halls and larger houses may have been oiled, waxed, stained or left natural. So it depends, on the whole I think the older country cottages would probably not have had all their beams polished although some carved large dimensioned beams may have been although I really do not know.

As regards floors, I know quite a lot more, if you are talking about oak, elm and pine country board floors then probably not, pine board floors in towns, then very likely not, normally only some pitch pine floors (of all types) most parquet block and most hardwood board floors would have been sanded and polished. Fashions change and many pine floors were stained to look like more expensive wood, especially in America, but I digress.

Beams probably not in country cottages, maybe the larger beams that are carved in some properties who knows? in larger halls, churches and larger properties then more likely it's a maybe yes.

Floors, parquet block and overlay mosaic of all varieties and pitch pine boards (especially when accompanied by pitch pine stairs and panelling) and hardwood floors in towns and large halls then yes, maybe. Oak, elm and pine floors in smaller country cottages and most pine floors in town houses, probably not.

Whether you should is up to personal taste, whether it is historically accurate depends. In general common sense prevails, the better the timber, the more grand the building in design and execution the more likely the wood may have been show wood. For the vast majority of mostly Georgian, Victorian and Edwardian pine floors in the towns and City's of the UK they would not have been sanded and if they were rugs of various sizes as was the changing fashions of each period would have likely been employed.

Toby

 

[Toby Newell]

Doug

your pedantry is almost certainly justified. Technically I think a bressummer refers to a particular load bearing horizontal beam normally found toward the outside or outside of a structure but I feel the definition has become a bit woolly in modern times so I use it to define, incorrectly as you point out, the larger beams or supporting structures in a property. There are a plethora of wonderful historical names to describe almost every detail of a buildings structure, I used bressummer as it may be one of the more common names people have heard of when describing beams and I thought it would infer that the beam was large in dimension as contextually a number of lay people I have met use the term in this way also. I have edited bressummer to 'large dimensioned beams' which, is slightly more prosaic if not technically accurate. I apologise for my poetic intransigence.

But thanks for hoisting me by my own pedantry, if anyone deserves it, I do.

T

 

[DJH]

I don't have the article to hand at the moment Toby. I'm in the middle of a major tidy up and in the space of under an hour it's at the bottom of yet another heap! The theme of it really was bemoaning the fact that hundreds of years of wear and patination are being lost through the use of the sander as you so aptly describe above. It was a wake up call to remind members of the Group that there are kinder ways of treating floorboards than grinding off the surface. It also touched on how to repair/lessen damage caused to boards which have been lifted for access below for whatever reason, mostly for inclusion of services by plumbers and electricians and even for burglar and IT systems. Carpenters are rarely involved in this process and the boards are almost always taken up by these other trades (?) whose main objective is to get them out of the way.

Like you I noticed the masons bolster chisel inserted between some boards ready to lever them up in a recent topic. You alluded to it with just the words...cold chisel. Remarkably, no mention was made by anyone else (unless I've missed it!) about what was surely about to happen to these boards when lifted in this way. I've seen pick axes used before now to lift elm boards... :shock:

Doug

 

[Lime]

However ...........etc............
And, sorry to correct you. That would be Newel posts, with one l. But then I would point that out wouldn't I?

Best (warmest, genuine and totally unironic) wishes

Toby

For someone who wishes to be known as an expert you come across as a prig.
No wonder you hide your address and telephone number.
I suspect you've got yourself into trouble before with your outspoken and arrogant point of view.
I wouldn't employ you judging by your unpleasant and rather nasty persona.

Your actions are of a troll.

 

[Toby Newell]

lime

I do not wish to be known as anything although I would prefer to be thought of as an expert rather than a prig, which indeed I concede I may be in more than one persons opinion.

My address and telephone number are not hidden, they can be found on my website and in large seven feet long letters on the side of my van. My site is easy to find if you can remember my name.

I suspect I may have ruffled a few peoples feathers before as I am more outspoken and arrogant than many, I cannot disagree. I feel most people feel I do not wish to appear rude and that happily I overcompensate by offering countless hours of free help and advice to people from all over the world from this site and my website. I am sure that if your view were the majority view pigeon I would get asked to leave, which I would promptly and happily do.

Whether or not you wish to employ me is a matter of opinion and your prerogative as is your opinion that I am unpleasant and nasty.

Whilst I think you may partly feel this way as I had the temerity to disagree with you on a specific point regarding floor finishing which obviously hurt your feelings. I agree, I could of let it go and my reply was slightly priggish, and 'trollish' even, I apologise genuinely if that upset you, that is my nature although my actions are sincerely meant to elucidate not scorn for fun, which is what I think 'trolling' refers to.

You compounded matters though by qualifying your statement with the words 'I can assure you' and then when challenged to provide evidence, only backed this up with personal attacks on my character, which I do not think was constructive. I am very interested in learning more about wood finishing and find the wisdom of people such as yourself interesting and valuable, the problem is you made a generalisation as a statement of fact and when challenged attacked me. People can make their own minds up on how you dealt with the situation.

So, just to clarify, I am not a troll although my actions may occasionally appear 'trollish' I may or may not be a prig, which I accept and you may or may not be at least partially correct with your original statement which I conceded at the time.

In return you have provided no evidence to back up your factual like assertions other than you are older than me and that I am a nasty person.

I think it is best that I politely do not reply directly to any of your posts incase I upset you, feel free to comment on any of mine but please do not be offended if I ignore you as I think bickering in public is rather tedious for everyone involved and especially to any innocent bystanders watching.

T

 

[Toby Newell]

Doug

I totally agree, there are a very very small minority of companies that have the skills and knowledge to sand ancient timbers with care and respect and an even smaller proportion of those who can be bothered to do so. All I am doing is saying there IS another way and on my website I describe this other way in detail.

Also I doubly agree with regard to carpenters and especially electricians and the worst plumbers, the stories I could tell. Shocking. Like the Romanian labourer hanging off the end of the scaffold pole which in turn was placed over a 6ft pry bar who was already 'lifting' the pine floor we were about to restore, by breaking each board in two, ok so that was jaw droppingly, scarily and afterwards very amusing rare but similar less ridiculous actions frequently take place. Many times I have stood hands on hips speechless (which you know, for me, is rare) before uttering WHY? over and over again. Occasionally (I am ashamed to admit) I or my floor layer both can be heard (when we think the client is out) swearing or shouting when we uncover the damage other uncaring tradesmen have left behind. We swear because we rarely recoup all the costs of all the repairs we do and the repairs are frequently tiring, painful and very frustrating, we pay in sweat, blood and bruised hands for absolutely no logical reason. The futility in knowing that to have done the job properly in the first place would have likely not taken any longer rarely ceases to frustrate and amaze. But that's human nature I guess. The building trades always have been to an extent and massively more so these days a haven for the unsympathetic. If only plumbers took as much pride in their work as their bank accounts.

Mostly Doug it is due to lack of care, laziness and overwhelmingly respect. I do not think educating tradespeople is the answer, it's not rocket science, I think if possible people who care about their old floors should either chaperone their plumbers or get older more experienced and considerate carpenters to lift the floors for them, or, you know, learn how to do it themselves!

Totally agree. If in doubt, do not sand and only lift when you really have to.

T