Better than linseed paint?

[steveb]

I have made the same switch from Holkams to the Linseed Paint Company - and have the same observations re the nice man there

We only used Holkams internally so drying time was not much of an issue if you were careful, but an now trying to use the linseed paint company paint externally on a summer house and having the same problem of avoiding rain and avoiding insects.

What I have done it would seem is create the world's largest fly trap!

 

[Flyfisher]

Hmm - serious food for thought for me here.

I started off using the Allback linseed paint that was supplied by Holkhams. Fascia boards painted 9 years ago, mixture of new and old timber (but stripped back to bare wood) have stood up very well since. But I have found that horizontal surfaces such as window cills look really grubby very quickly - and my driveway gates, under trees, looked horrible after only a couple of years and would not clean up. This was using a dark cream / light yellow colour, so they are pale, but the gates in particular look grotty partly because of dirt bouncing up from rain splash on the ground around them (which will not clean off) and partly they've just gone black and splotchy.

I switched to Linseed Paint Company when Holkhams stopped supply. A nice product, the chap there went to great lengths to match a Allback green for me, goes on well and dries to a glossier finish than Allback so I'm hoping it won't stain as easily. But the drying time is still a major issue. I've already had to rub down fascia boards on my garage where they got caught in an unexpected sower about 4 hours after I painted them. I desperately need to do work on the big sash bay window in my lounge, it's as rotten as a pear at the bottom, but it's the paint drying times combined with the vageries of the British weather thats stopping me - I don't want boarded up windows for ages either and I just can't keep the weather off the frame for long enough.

I'd love to continue with linseed paint but I'm coming to the conclusion that I need to sacrifice some principles in order to make progress. Working full time, with family commitments at the weekends, I'm just never going to get my doors and windows renovated unless I change something in what I'm doing. It's the appearance of the joinery that is really letting my house down at the moment and it can't be doing the wood any good, the current gloss coatings are all well past their best and are cracked and split to hell.

I'm not prepared to go down the Dulux route - conventional modern gloss paints just don't last long enough - I'd rather spend a lot of time and do the job once, to last a decade, than do it quickly and be back within 3 years to repaint (because I know I won't do it!!!)

Bedec or Jotun look like they might be the way to go. Both get favourable reviews online from what I've seen, not universal praise but certainly more good than bad, and both are available online. Decisions decisions.........

Now there's a heartfelt post if ever there was one. I think I've travelled much the same path but am also still undecided about what's best . . . apart from avoiding modern acrylic paints!

I think my preferred option would be to have no painted woodwork at all. Parts of our house have oak timbers that have been exposed to the weather for around 450 years and although they are a bit 'gnarly' they are rock solid and probably good for another few hundred years, so that would seem to prove that paint is not needed to protect wood - if you choose the right wood! But as we all know, hardwoods are expensive and that's where the problems start. Compromise on the materials and then keep patching them up for ever more.

Of course, paint gives amazing decorative opportunities, but I'm increasingly thinking that comes at quite a price. Probably too high a price. We had oak window frames made for our kitchen extension but have resisted painting them, even though all our other windows are painted black. I gave them one coat of Osmo Polyx inside and out but deliberately only used the internal formulation. My thinking was that the new oak could do with some protection while it 'settled down' in its new environment but that an 'internal' finish would weather more quickly than an exterior one. Nearly three years on and this is proving to be true, although it's a shame the weathering isn't yet uniform. Still, I'm hoping that it will become a uniform 'weathered silver grey' within a couple of decades. Hopefully, I'll live to see it but either way at least it will be maintenance free.

I'd be tempted to replace all our windows with solid oak and let them also weather naturally, but it would cost a small fortune - quite apart from being unnecessarily destructive as most of them are still quite solid and have much original glass (besides, I doubt I'd get LBC!). So, given that impractical option I'm stuck with painting them.

Having said all that, I fully appreciate that weathered oak windows would not suit all period properties and that a painted finish is often part of the charm - and therein lies the dilemma.
Paint - can't live with it, can't live without it.

Sorry Feltwell, but that's not much help is it?

 

[CliffordPope]

Traditional linseed oil paint presumes a proper lead-based primer. Without that in my experience is is useless.
You can still get red and white lead for listed buildings, and also from classic boat chandlers.

Alternatively, I have found Dulux clear weathershield primer to be good, but hard to find anywhere. It forms a good base either for oil-based paint or Sadolin Superdec water-based paint/stain.

 

[Flyfisher]

Wouldn't traditional linseed paint have preceded lead-based paints?

I recall Holkham suggesting that slightly diluted (10% turps I seem to recall) linseed oil could be first applied to bare wood before linseed paint, though they made it sound optional. It's what I did on the new soffits and bargeboards of out kitchen extension and all is well so far, though it was only a few years so a bit early yet to tell.

Interesting that you mention lead paints still being available in classic chandlers. I've been buying my limewash from Ingilby's in Suffolk and they used to have a separate company 'Ingilby Marine' producing lead paints until quite recently. I'd not realised that the boating world had stuck with lead paint.

 

[malcolm]

I have asked the guy making my windows not to use any primer under the linseed oil paint. The paint needs to soak into the wood to oil it and allow it to breathe. The 100 year old wood I have stripped didn't seem to have suffered through lack of primer. Breathing is not so good for metal parts so a lead based primer would be invaluable there, but the modern very high (95%) zinc content primers are a good alternative so long as you have a shot blasted metal surface.

My linseed paint has only been on for a year, so I will need to report back in 100 years time for a proper test. I did manage a thorough test on the modern gloss I applied to the front windows 3 years ago. It has cracked badly after 2 years and needs to be removed and done again so I'm not really sold on that stuff.

 

[livias]

My understanding is that in the past all linseed oil paint used to contain lead as a dryer so in the past it dried much quicker than it does today. One of the linseed oil paint companies (but I can't remember which) puts in a substitute dryer but then they can't market it as 'pure'

Linseed oil paint with lead dryers is still allowed on Grade 1 listed buildings but lead is banned as a health and safety risk elsewhere. My Great grandad was a painter decorator and he died of lead poisoning, so that is probably a wise move

 

[CliffordPope]

" I'd not realised that the boating world had stuck with lead paint."

Apparently red-lead primer has the exceptional property of bonding to wood, creating a key for the undercoat. It also adheres well to ironwork.
If you have old wood that has once been primed with red lead then the red stain is virtually permanent - no amount of scraping seems to remove it. Blow-lamping it (not now recommended, although I often watched my father doing it) simply embeds the paint in the wood.

 

[plasticpigeon]

I don't think lead was a drier. I say this because I have an old book which has paint formulations in it and the colours usually call for white lead which was the base and also a separate driers, along with linseed oil, terpentine, and any colour to be added. I thought the driers was something that made the oil oxidise faster. However I may be wrong, lead paint is not my area of expertise (although there is plenty of it in my house, which I am trying to get rid of).

 

[Me!]

Thank you everyone for your comments and I’ve had another good look at my existing woodwork so that I can add the following information.

All my south-facing woodwork has been painted with linseed paint at some point over the past few years. I started off using Holkham paint, then switched to Linseed Paint Company (I must also add to the previous comments about Ross, the chap at LPC who is extremely helpful) as I found their paint does dry a bit quicker than Holkham and it also has a better gloss finish. However, I found that LPC paint had far less opacity than Holkham, so I finally settled on a mix of the two using a blend of 95% LPC + 5% Holkham (now Allback). This gives good covering power, good gloss, and still the slightly quicker drying times.

The majority of these frames are 1960’s pine, with some sections of new softwood spliced in for repairs and one frame is some type of modern tropical hardwood. All of it was sanded back to bare wood before starting with linseed oil and then linseed paint. In all of these places, the vertical parts do still have a coating of paint on them but it looks faded and with a pale bloom on the surface where it has caught the most sun. The sills however are far worse. The old ones have some cracks and shakes which I variously tried to either leave as they are or to fill with a) linseed putty, b) polyfiller or c) car bodyfiller, before painting with linseed paint, and none of them have lasted at all well. The one hardwood frame, which is also one of the first I painted with linseed, has lasted much better than any of the others. The paint is faded and bloomed, but still intact and appears to be still well stuck all over.
Also on the south side, I have old bargeboards (which face east and west) which I sanded back to bare wood in places but also left old paint (unknown type) where it was sound. These bargeboards have caps which face south and I replaced these with new softwood and painted the whole lot with my 95%+5% blend of linseed paint. The new caps were made of sawn and treated timber (not planed) which I belt sanded to a smoothish surface but deliberately left a bit rough to add to the key of the paint. These bargeboards and also the caps and currently surviving pretty well.

I have also painted a few of my north-facing frames with Holkham paint a few years ago. Despite doing this in the height of summer, they remained slightly sticky until the following summer! By that point they had a good coating of dead flies, dust and mold, to which can now also be added a good dose of algae. An attempt to remove the surface detritus a couple of years after painting them, and using just soap and water and a scrubbing brush resulted in much of the paint coming off as well.

Prior to trying linseed paint, I did a few frames with Sadolin Superdec. One of these north facing frames is still absolutely fine, but one of the south facing ones had paint literally coming off its sill in sheets the following winter as rain dripped on the sill from the window header rail.

So, linseed drying times are indeed a major problem and I had started to look at ways of trying to speed things up a bit. As I understand it, linseed oil doesn’t actually ‘dry’ at all in terms of something evaporating, it actually hardens chemically by oxidation with the air. Terebine (or similar) should make this happen faster by catalysing the reaction, but as with all catalysts they leave a residue and I don’t know what if any impact this may have on the lifespan of the paint. Another thought was to try and use ozone to quickly harden the linseed oil, as this wouldn’t leave any catalyst residue. Ozone generators are less that a couple of hundred pounds now, and with a bit of polythene sheeting taped to the wall to make a tent around the frame area it should be possible to pump in ozone gas in a high enough concentration to have a noticeable impact on the drying time. However, please don’t try this one at home folks unless you are sure you know what you’re doing. Ozone is extremely good for us when it is a long way up in the ozone layer, but extremely bad for us when it is in close proximity down at ground level. Also, ultraviolet light is another thing that speeds up the hardening time and which could possibly be used in conjunction with one of the above. But, I hadn’t got around to trying any of these accelerated drying options before my current disillusionment started over the lack of longevity of the paint. Has anybody else tried anything to speed it up?

Moving on to Jotun DemiDekk, and I have now painted one set of bargeboards and one window frame with it. The bargeboards are north facing, old pine sanded bare, with east and west facing new caps made again out of roughly belt-sanded new sawn and treated softwood. The window is north facing and looks like a softwood 1990’s Jeld-Wen type of thing, and it is also directly under an extractor fan outlet from a shower which means it gets dripped on a lot and has a bad problem with algae. The first thing that surprised me about Jotun was the primer which is clear, and looks like a very runny polyurethane varnish. However I applied it as directed, which includes putting three coats on any end grain and doing it wet on wet, i.e. not allowing for any drying time at all in between. When I was in the paint shop in Sweden, I was told that in areas prone to algae, mold and fungi, there is also Jotun Sopp- og algedreper which can be used to give even better protection in damp areas like my dripped-on windowsill, but unfortunately I cannot get any in England (I have even contacted Jotun who have said it is not available in the UK). However, apparently the primer also contains stuff to kill and prevent algae, mold and fungi so I’ll have to hope it is sufficient.
After the primer, I put on two coats of topcoat on the previously painted parts of the window frames and three coats on all the areas of bare wood. It is very easy to use and brushes on nicely with enough of a flow in the paint so that it does level out a bit unlike some other modern waterbased glosses I’ve used that are like trying to paint with blancmange!
Now that it’s on it looks good, and I will find a south facing bit to do as well for a fair trial so that I can really see how it compares over the next few years. But my one final thing to add for now is that with each of the coats I was able to paint the window frame in the morning and then close it fully in the evening, … and, … it opened again fine the next morning with only the most minute bit of extra push required

 

[Feltwell]

Thank you Me! for posting that, very helpful.

Now I just need to decide between Jotun and Bedec.........

Ironically I dealt with Bedec years ago, their MSP was stocked in B&Q at one time.

I like the idea of the Bedec but the lack of claims of longevity put me off a little. Does anyone have any practical experience of how long it lasts?

 

[88v8]

I think the duration of any system significantly depends on the wood, the facing, the colour.
On seasoned wood with no shakes, north facing, pretty much any well-applied paint will last. The Magnet lead primer undercoat two topcoats on our green north front window in our previous house was still good after 30 years, and the green Valspar on the northerly front door ditto.
East and west, duration will diminish.
Dark colours, spectacularly diminish.
Unseasoned wood, or wood with shakes you can't close up with brass screws & epoxy, it's a losing battle.
South facing, that same green Magnet lead that lasted 30 years on the north, was frying off after three years. Cream, lasted longer. Downstairs, shaded by trees near the house, lasted better.
It's very damp here. I fear linseed would become very dirty, so I'll confine it to black such as the garage doors.
Will try the Demidekk, but I think the best solution for painting is to have no southerly woodwork.

Ivor

 

[wobs]

Now there's a heartfelt post if ever there was one. I think I've travelled much the same path but am also still undecided about what's best . . . apart from avoiding modern acrylic paints!

Why no acrylic? Just curious after what MikeG posted.

I'm at a similar situation as many here. Many sash windows to do, and about to start taking one out to strip and re-paint. I've done the outer face of all of them with LPC paint, and looking to do the rest of the ouside the same. The long drying time shouldn't be a problem given I have so much else to do between coats anyway!

Its causing problems though, owing to the sheer workload. Stripping rubbish paint, rubbing down, and re-painting even just gloss is a big job when one has family and work commitments. Still, if it lasts it will hopefully be worth. And a damn site cheaper than replacing.

 

[Flyfisher]

Now there's a heartfelt post if ever there was one. I think I've travelled much the same path but am also still undecided about what's best . . . apart from avoiding modern acrylic paints!

Why no acrylic? Just curious after whay MikeG posted.

Because, in my mind, anything 'acrylic, just means a coating of impermeable plastic and my limited experience of decayed wood has all been associated with circumstances that have caused trapped moisture being the root of the problem. It's not that I think a coating of impermeable plastic is a necessarily a bad thing, more that the coating itself doesn't last long and will inevitably allow water to penetrate wherever it splits while trapping it under the remaining coating.

But I'm certainly no expert, just a frustrated DIYer. I'd like to think the paint companies have all manner of professional experts formulating their paints but the cynic in me thinks they concentrate more on usability than longevity. Thus, water-based quick-drying paints are a boon to the weekend DIYer who wishes to smarten up their windows and still be able to close them in the evening without becoming glued shut forever, but I'd happily trade a bit less convenience for a longer lifespan.

If we can put a man on the moon, surely it's possible to formulate something that will protect wood from decay for, say, 100 years. Indeed, if we consider that plain untreated oak windows will almost certainly last 100 years in the first place, it would seem that the fashion for painted windows is actually a backward step in terms of maintenance and durability.

 

[noj]

surely it's possible to formulate something that will protect wood from decay for, say, 100 years

But where's the profit in that?

 

[wobs]

Now there's a heartfelt post if ever there was one. I think I've travelled much the same path but am also still undecided about what's best . . . apart from avoiding modern acrylic paints!

Why no acrylic? Just curious after whay MikeG posted.

Because, in my mind, anything 'acrylic, just means a coating of impermeable plastic and my limited experience of decayed wood has all been associated with circumstances that have caused trapped moisture being the root of the problem. It's not that I think a coating of impermeable plastic is a necessarily a bad thing, more that the coating itself doesn't last long and will inevitably allow water to penetrate wherever it splits while trapping it under the remaining coating.

But I'm certainly no expert, just a frustrated DIYer. I'd like to think the paint companies have all manner of professional experts formulating their paints but the cynic in me thinks they concentrate more on usability than longevity. Thus, water-based quick-drying paints are a boon to the weekend DIYer who wishes to smarten up their windows and still be able to close them in the evening without becoming glued shut forever, but I'd happily trade a bit less convenience for a longer lifespan.

If we can put a man on the moon, surely it's possible to formulate something that will protect wood from decay for, say, 100 years. Indeed, if we consider that plain untreated oak windows will almost certainly last 100 years in the first place, it would seem that the fashion for painted windows is actually a backward step in terms of maintenance and durability.

The whole breathability thing is a controversial issue, not least because there is no single agreed test for the paint. There are those that doubt the breathability of microporous paints:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/interiors/jeffhowell/3343775/On-the-level-heres-a-story-thats-full-of-holes.-Tiny-little-ones.html

And a good article that compares acrylic with conventional gloss:
http://www.paintquality.com.au/press/newspaper/BOAPT01.html

-Acrylic looks to last longer here.

But a failure mechanism that worries you is difficult to argue against, as it sits on the surface like gloss.

And there are those that claim linseed isn't as breathable as most claim:
http://www.ecotimberframe.ie/pdf/BreathabilityinbuildingsNBT.pdf

The major problem here is that linseed paint is a minor player in the paint market, so getting reliable data on the issue is difficult, beyond those that risk committing some naturalistic fallacy to promote it.
http://www.organicnaturalpaint.co.uk/blogs/what-is-breathable-paint-and-why-does-it-matter/
http://cornishlime.co.uk/information/breathable-paints/introduction-to-decorating-old-buildings/
https://www.reine-leinoelfarben.de/en/application-linseed-oil-paints-colours/126-half-timbered-remediation-with-linseed-oil-colors.html

And rumour:

http://www.heritage-consulting.org/breathable-paint
“There ARE a breed of silicate paints, mainly from Germany, which claim to be breathable. In our experience they are not - and we've had a lot of trouble with them peeling - but the manufacturers still claim they do the job. “

This guy loves linseed paint:
http://www.guildmc.com/consumer-advice/why-natural-linseed-paint-is-the-best-option-on-period-properties.aspx

Its difficult to separate fact from emotive opinions, not least as you spend so much time working on this, that you want to justify it, and claim it to be the best. If you haven't used a paint, how can you claim it is inferior after all?

I have bought a tin of black Bedec MSP to use on some gutters that will hopefully appear in the near future (if I can find the guy to do it). And I'm getting a new off the shelf back door, which I plan to use some modern varnish (I think painting it the same colour as the frame will be a bit too much green in the world). But for the architectural features that I can't afford to replace, I currently plan to continue to use linseed paint. Its a close call, but I do think its still the best. Just.

PS. For those that believe in microporous paint for wood: Do you also believe that Dulux microporous masonry paint is good for one's sandstone?

 

[wobs]

Also, LPC claims they are aiming for 25 year life span of their paint in ideal conditions:

Conventional wisdom on linseed oil paint websites is that it lasts 15 years without further treatment. Moreover, it then only needs repainted with a coat of linseed oil, which costs very little. With our inclusion of wood oil, we are aiming for a quarter of a century, a lifespan quoted by some traditional Swedish builder/painters. But the success or failure of painted surfaces depends on many variables quite independent of the paint itself, primarily the surface taking the paint (raw wood, planed timber, and what type of wood at that and its ambient moisture content, old paint, linseed putty, silicone, and its exposure to sunlight). Like any other paint, linseed paints on north-east facing surfaces, out of the sun and rain, do better than paint on south-west facing surfaces (sorry for not taking you antipodeans into consideration here). Like any other paint, linseed paints tend to fail on timbers that get very wet and have an average moisture content well above 15%, as window sills often do. And like any other paint, linseed paint does better on rough, "off-saw" timber than on a planed, smooth surface. Indeed, the paint will do so much better that it is well worth specifying rough unplaned timber if you are building anew. This will add years and years onto the repainting cycle.

http://www.linseedpaintcompany.co.uk/index.html

I just hope it lasts a long time, or there will be trouble at Wobs Acres.

 

[wobs]

Another study looking at linseed paint:
http://agronomy.emu.ee/vol09Spec1/p09s124.pdf

 

[Flyfisher]

Thanks for those posts wobs, especially the reference links. LPC's claim of 15 years for linseed paint is certainly encouraging, though I still suspect there is great variability depending on colour and aspect as it seems to be the sun rather than the rain that kills painted surfaces, so a northerly aspect is always going to fair better than a southerly one. I still think that avoiding paint altogether is the best option for low maintenance, but appreciate this is only really possible if good quality hardwood is used in the first place and, of course, would not suit all architectural styles.

 

[Flyfisher]

surely it's possible to formulate something that will protect wood from decay for, say, 100 years

But where's the profit in that?

Indeed, though it would be interesting to know if it is actually possible. After all, it's surely not too difficult to make one's own paint and would probably be worth the effort if it was truly a once in a lifetime job.

 

[noj]

Actually they're continuously discovering paints that lasted a lifetime.

Unfortunately, each time they do, the man who knew the recipe has just died