Another sash window question

[LadyArowana]

I am posting this for a friend who has a lower GF flat with a bedroom window on a moderately busy road. The sashes are single glazed and not bad in terms of draught ( I believe they were Ventrolla'd by previous owner ... have those brushy things etc ) but she is finding that noise is an issue. She has had one company come and quote to do some form of secondary glazing in aluminium which would effectively use up the whole depth of the present window sill. They have said that to be effective at accoustic insulation needs as much air gap as possible.

She sent me a picture for you. I would very much appreciate any comments and suggestions. She was particularly concerned about the aesthetics of what they were suggesting as it would have had a thick piece of aluminium down the centre between the two sashes. It's a non listed Edwardian mansion block.

 

[another_richard]

You could extend the windowsill inwards to the edge of the walls and then add the secondary glazing.

I am sure you know there are several companies offering secondary glazing using a variety of materials.

Expect to pay around £500

 

[plasticpigeon]

I suppose the sashes could be changed for double glazed ones, which would necessitate the weights being changed for heavier ones. I spoke to a guy called Keith Nurcombe about this who seemed very knowledgeable, and very happy to share his expertise. This is his site. I can't endorse him as I haven't used his products, but I think if I ever want to go the double glazing route, this would be my choice.

http://supasash.com

 

[Feltwell]

I think secondary glazing will be much more effective for noise reduction than double glazing - not only have you got a much larger air gap, but also it covers the frame. I would have thought with DG in the existing sliding sashes you'd still get noise "leakage" past the sliding sashes.

I went down the magnetic tape and perspex route, which is not to everyone's taste. It's about as minimally intrusive visually as you can get, but in my case you need to take the perspex down and store it during the summer, and whilst that's fine for me I don't imagine that your friend's basement flat has lots of storage space. Also my secondary glazing was fitted for thermal reasons, not acoustic (although I have noticed it cuts the noise down a lot).

Sliding secondary glazing systems are much more visually intrusive but work better and are more convenient in everyday use. They won't fit everyone's house (they won't fit mine) but should be fine in your friend's place judging by that picture. On here, AMc has them and is pleased with them so is probably best placed to comment.

 

[Feltwell]

I spoke to a guy called Keith Nurcombe about this who seemed very knowledgeable, and very happy to share his expertise. This is his site. I can't endorse him as I haven't used his products, but I think if I ever want to go the double glazing route, this would be my choice.

http://supasash.com

There's some interesting stuff on that website, but the sceptic in me says that there are a lot of "miracle" sounding phrases and very little detail or close up pictures. I'd want to check that firm out carefully if they were an option - not too bad for plasticpigeon or myself, as being in Rugby they aren't too far away.

I love the quote they've chosen to put up on one of their pages:-

"Why can't I buy these in B&Q? They are so simple, my wife can fit them”.
Mike Bryant, Staleybridge

Clearly Mike fitted them in the 1950's, either that or Sid the Sexist's career at Viz has dried up and he's changed his name! Maybe Mike's career was making public information films...... :lol:

http://videosift.com/video/Women-For-Pitys-Sake-Dont-Drive

Anyone else heard of this miracle softwood transforming process that site talks about? "Too good to be true" is the first thought that goes through this sceptic's mind.

http://supasash.com/modifed_softwood.html

 

[LadyArowana]

Thanks for the replies so far, much appreciated. I hope someone has a picture, or website where they show, some accoustic type secondary glazing that looks like it isnt there.... I know thats what my friend really wants. I cant help her as we only replaced the one sash with a DG unit that looks the same, but it wasnt an anti noise one.

 

[Feltwell]

Does she want to be able to still open the window easily?

If yes, your friend is asking for the impossible I suspect.

If no, then a perspex sheet over the entire frame held around the edges with magnetic tape will be about as invisible as it's possible to be. If your friend is not the DIY type, then try this site. They offer installation but not covering the entire country.

http://www.magneglaze.co.uk/index.php

Alternatively - the Magneglaze system on the sliding sashes only will be unobtrusive, you can still open the windows easily and it will reduce noise - but not by as much as covering the entire frame.

A compromise somewhere is required, on aesthetics, ease of opening the window or level of noise reduction!

Or of course as the building isn't listed then you can get some lovely UPVC sliding sashes these days :twisted: (that look HIDEOUS!) :lol:

 

[piper]

I'd certainly like more opinions from the Forum about that Supasash product. At first sight it looks very impressive, though I also have a sceptic in me saying Too Good to be True, and Where's the catch?

I've been exploring this type of solution for some time, and still can't decide if it's going to work well enough or be worth it. We have three one-over-one Victorian (probably) sash windows which seem to me to be ideal candidates for just replacing the sliding sashes with double glazed frames - probably oak for increased strength, in the original box frames with added draught-proofing inserts. I had considered several options for accommodating the extra thickness - the slim double glazing units (expensive), making the sashes thicker but rebated to fit - the upper sash protrudes outwards, the lower inwards, beyond the edges of the box - hard to describe but fairly obvious if you think about it (might look a bit ugly). There is of course the problem of the extra weight, which I would try to balance by using larger lead weights. I don't want secondary glazing because I want to keep the shutters, which we use, and any secondary units would need to be VERY thin to fit between the shutters and the window. At present, one of these windows - next to which I am sitting, has the poor man's option of shrink-on plastic sheet, which surprisingly works reasonably well.

This guy Keith Nurcombe nowhere addresses the problems of extra thickness and weight.
If you click on the flat-pack DIY option there's a close-up picture of one of his units, in brown rather 'imitation' looking wood which is not very attractive, and on the testimonials page someone talks about a regular maintenance visit to lubricate the slides - so does he use some mechanical system instead of traditional weights?

It may be worth a call to ask these questions, but otherwise he seems to say all the right things, though I guess a DIY or local joiner made replacement sashes may be cheaper and more completely 'traditional'. However, Nurcombe has criticisms of inserting DG units directly into wood with mastic or glazing strips and promotes his clip-in system.

 

[piper]

To answer the OP, for noise reduction your best option is definitely secondary glazing. There was a company linked to on this forum not long ago who supplied DIY sliding secondary glazing kits, which looked good. I can't remember who they were. Can someone remind me?

 

[plasticpigeon]

Hello

Sorry to hijack the thread. However re supasash, I spoke to Keith and unlike most snake oil salesmen, he seemed to be very open about his methods. He says that his aim was to make a wooden sliding sash with modern (21mm I think) double glazed panes with an air gap all round the glazed unit and drip grooves in order to maximise the life of the double glazed units. He said that the sashes screw together and that new lead weights are part of the package and the fitter would have to balance them. He even told me the address of a house near me (Chantry rd in Moseley, wonderful properties in that rd) where his windows were installed and offered to give me their number to inspect if I liked. I think he's worth looking into. I believe this is his effort to make higher quality mass produced double glazing as a money making business, not bespoke historically super accurate windows for listed buildings!! If all houses that had PVC used this system I think our build environment would be much more attractive.

Also the modified softwood I think is called Accoya. It seems genuine!!! Maybe I'm gullible, but he seemed to have none of the qualities of a fraudster!! I may well think about getting a window done later this year so will let everyone here know the results if I do!!!!

 

[Feltwell]

I'd be very interested if you find out more about that company PP.

 

[agbagb]

I'll be having a closer look at Supasash as well. I've been working on sliding sash window design for few years now. If they've cracked the problems of fitting standard DG units in standard size sashes it's worth taking a look at. They don't reveal any details on their site so I can't make any useful comments yet.

However going back to original question I think the solution will come down to cost. Replacement of the full sashes will be expensive, it would come as no surprise if a quote for the two came in at £600++ . One of the secondry glazing options would keep original, perfectly serviceable windows and cut out a considerable amount of noise. I think there are options with white frames or aluminium could be easiler painted/sprayed. Heavy curtains could also be an option if its a bedroom with night noise problems, the blind that's up there won't be doing a great deal. You could try a quick experiment by hanging a couple of blankets up.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Hmmm, thinking outside the box...

Has she tried sleeping with earplugs? Or carpetting the road?

 

[biffvernon]

Also the modified softwood I think is called Accoya. It seems genuine!!! Maybe I'm gullible,!

Accoya is a genuine enough stuff. You kinda cook non-durable wood in vinegar and it becomes very durable. Like wot we did with conkers. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accoya_wood

 

[Feltwell]

Also the modified softwood I think is called Accoya. It seems genuine!!! Maybe I'm gullible,!

Accoya is a genuine enough stuff. You kinda cook non-durable wood in vinegar and it becomes very durable. Like wot we did with conkers. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accoya_wood

Well YOU may have done that with conkers, but some of us would not dare to cheat in such a way :lol:

I wonder why Accoya is not being hailed as the next great thing then? Is it a horrifically expensive process? It sounds fantastic - sustainable fast growing softwood that can be made as durable and stable as a hardwood in a process that doesn't involve lots of poisonous chemicals. There must be a catch!

 

[LadyArowana]

Are children still allowed to play conkers or has 'elf n safety decreed that it's too hazardous?

 

[philpjuk100]

Are children still allowed to play conkers or has 'elf n safety decreed that it's too hazardous?

Oh!

 

[MatthewC]

Are children still allowed to play conkers or has 'elf n safety decreed that it's too hazardous?

It's a myth - I think one story is that a headmaster in Scotland took some photos showing children playing conkers while wearing goggles. He intended this to illustrate how silly the H&S culture had become, but the media used the photos and added their own interpretation so it rather backfired on him.

 

[biffvernon]

Are children still allowed to play conkers or has 'elf n safety decreed that it's too hazardous?

Oooh noooo. My daughter (it's ok, she's 32) won the Alford Conker Championship last Autumn at the The Half Moon. First time in history that a woman has won it.

And no cheating is allowed - you don't even get to use your own conker.

 

[Goodwood]

I've just discovered this website, and find that a few people have been taking my name in vain. As often happens when chatting, someone manages to get their facts wrong and, perhaps inadvertently, but still carelessly, impugn another's character.

So, here are the facts about SupaSash and Keith Nurcombe, straight from the horse's mouth:

First of all, April 4th 2012 Plastic Pigeon reports having spoken to me on the phone. (For which, many thanks). Not difficult, as my phone number is clearly visible on every page of the Supasash website.

Sadly, shortly afterwards, Feltwell, without bothering to discuss it with me beforehand, tells everyone that the quote from a client in Staleybridge...

Clearly Mike fitted them in the 1950's, either that or Sid the Sexist's career at Viz has dried up and he's changed his name!

No, not the 1950s. IIt was early 2000s. The client used those words. If you don't like them, discuss it with him, not me. Surely you wouldn't expect me to edit his words for him, would you?

It all gets worse, and I shall have more to say to the ignorant folk who can't even read what's written.

Back soon
Keith Nurcombe, Supasash UK

PS It's a great site, but, crikey, there are some so-called "professionals' out there that need watching. Phew!