Another LBC query - sorry!

[gothiceye]

I had a look at the LBC consent forms last night, for our impending bathroom remodelling (long story - there are plenty of posts!), and there was something which seemed to imply that we need to involve the community in the plans or decision making process.

What do we need to do - bearing in mind that it is internal modification - do we need to have a notice displayed outside our property inviting inspection and comments from the neighbourhood? :?

 

[Penners]

Just fill in the application for consent forms, and submit them. The local authority will, at some point, post a notice outside your house. However it will probably remain there for ever, unless you take it down yourself after the statutory period (! can't remember whether it's 21 or 28 days).

 

[gothiceye]

Do people generally object to internal plans like this? Or the Local Authority themselves for that matter (seeing as we currently have no choice but to remove the shower and adjoining plasterboard, and in turn rebuild the wall and move some of the other bathroom fixtures? Surely leaving the situation as it is, would be less beneficial to the property and for future buyers?

 

[Gareth Hughes]

I had a look at the LBC consent forms last night, for our impending bathroom remodelling (long story - there are plenty of posts!), and there was something which seemed to imply that we need to involve the community in the plans or decision making process.

What do we need to do - bearing in mind that it is internal modification - do we need to have a notice displayed outside our property inviting inspection and comments from the neighbourhood? :?

Two answers:

1. Yes, the local planning authority will put a notice up outside your house inviting comments during the period that the application is being determined. They (pretty much) have to do so for an LBC application.

2. What I think you are referring to is the Design and Access Statement that accompanies your application. One of the headings that needs to be dealt with is whether you have discussed your proposals with the neighbours (essentially).

Because DAS's have specific content required by law, and were invented by someone who'd never been outside the M25 and thinks all planning applications are made by big developers for thousands of new houses, they can seem very strange when applied to your sort of application.

Basically you just need to show that you've considered the issue - in this case you can say that as this is purely an internal alteration to a part of the house that does not contribute to the special interest of the building (I hope this is the case?), it was not felt to be appropriate to engage in significant wider consultation.

 

[gothiceye]

Thanks for the help

 

[gothiceye]

How can you tell whether an internal room contributes to the special interest of the building or not?

I don't think there are any specifically period features in there apart from the floorboards and the parts of the wall that are behind plasterboard. We have uncovered a fireplace behind part of the plasterboard but are including our plans to reveal this properly at a later stafe as part of our application.

Does any consultation need to be carried out other than with the conservation officer and the planning officer?

 

[Penners]

Check the Images of England website. Enter the name of your community in the Quick Search box, then scroll through the photos until you find your house. Click the More button and you'll get brief details of your listing, which will give you a hint on what's regarded as important about your house.

But remember - you still need LBC for any alterations, whether or not the special features are involved in them. The whole house is listed.

Best discuss your plans informally with your CO before you submit a formal application. Ask him/her whether you also need to involve the Building Regs department.

 

[gothiceye]

Thanks - I think I have a copy of that somewhere at home too. None of the interior is listed on the extract as there is a note saying that they were unable to gain entry. Ours is listed as one of a row of houses. Will this cause problems?

The conservation officer is aware of everything as we have involved them from the beginning - but as renovations were required, they passed out LBC form and plans to the planning department, who require more information and the design and access statement.

 

[Nemesis]

I hate to disagree Penners - but the listing description in reality bears little resemblance to what's considered important - it's simply there for identification purposes. The two processes don't co-incide, really.

Eventually proper descriptions are supposed to be coming, a statement of significance, but...

So at the moment, really it's up to the CO to decide what's important and what is less important, and also agree how things will be repaired and treated.

Unless it's listed at I or II* then no, only the local authority needs to be contacted. Planning is a different issue, as is building control; the works may not need these to be involved, depends really on what is being done.

It's best to try to get all LBC applications in together if that's possible.

 

[Penners]

I hate to disagree Penners

No you don't - you love it!

But I defer.

 

[Nemesis]

Some of the older descriptions are very limited in scope. They can be quite unhelpful in describing features of significance at times.



Here's one:

IoE number: 48663
Location: ELY, EAST CAMBRIDGESHIRE, CAMBRIDGESHIRE

Photographer: Mr Alan Francis Polaine
Date Photographed: 07 June 2004
Date listed: 23 September 1950
Date of last amendment: 23 September 1950
Grade A



1. Cathedral of the
1082 Holy Trinity

TL 5480 1/1
TL 5479 2/1 23.9.50

606/1/1 CATHEDRAL OF THE HOLY TRINITY 606/2/1A 23-SEP-50 GV I Revision Number: 2 Cathedral of the Holy Trinity 1082 TL 5480 1/1 23.9.50 TL 5479 2/1 GV 2. The Cathedral of the Holy Trinity was begun in 1083 by Simeon, a Kinsman of William the Conqueror and was virtually completed in its present form by 1350 after which no further major building took place. The nave and transepts have exceptionally fine C12 work, the chancel and west porch are C13 and the central crossing, lantern and the Lady Chapel are C14. The inner porch has some C15} work. Considerable restoration work was done by Sir Gilbert Scott in the mid C19. The Lady Chapel was begun in 1321 and a year later the Norman crossing tower fell. The Octagonal tower which replaced it was designed and built under the sacrsit Alan of Walsingham and the timber-framed lantern which crowns it was built under the direction of William Hurle, one of the most famous carpenters of his age and Chief Carpenter of the King's Works. The masonry of the Cathedral is almost entirely of ashlar faced Barnack limestone. The splendid architecture of the Cathedral and College is the dominating influence of the small scale, mainly C18 and C19 town which clusters closely around it. The Cathedral of The Holy Trinity forms the focal point connecting the following four distinct groups of buildings collectively known as The College. Group of the North:- The Almonry, Wall to the gardens of the Almonry and Painted Chamber, the Sacristy Gate and Goldsmith's Tower. Group to the South West:- The Great Hall (Bishop's residence), the Queen's Hall (Headmaster's House), Wall to the gardens of the Bishop's residence, Guest Quarters of the Monastery, Walls to the Guest Quarters of the Monastery and Ely Porta, Prior's House (Boarding House of The King's School), Prior Crauden's Chapel, Walls to the gardens of the Prior's House and Guest Hall, Ely Porta, Barn and Storehouse of the Monastery, Wall to the Barn and Storehouse of the Monastery. Group to the South West:- The Dark Cloisterm Powcher's Hall, the Painted Chamber (Walsingham House) the Chapel of the Infirmary, the Black Hostelry and Cellarers Chamber, Cellarers House. Group to the West:- Bishop's Palace, Walls of the Bishop's Palace.

Heres a little more information, as you see in the exmple given 'interior not inspected':

http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk/help/help.asp?Code=Y000.HTM


That's not very useful and doesn't often happen today.

However:

A building is always listed as a whole, including the interior. Listing also includes any object or structure fixed to the building, and any object or structure within the curtilage of the building which, although not fixed to the building, forms part of the land and has done so since before 1st July 1948.

This is a fair summary which may prove helpful:

http://www.tandridge.gov.uk/Planenviron/Conservation,ListedBuildingandTrees/listed_buildings.htm

as is this:

http://www.eden.gov.uk/main.asp?page=1655


Note the part which says:

The statutory list includes a description of each building, which may refer to some, but not all the important features of a historic building. Every part a building is listed, including the interior and any later alterations or additions. Even if a feature (internal or external) is not included in the description, it does not mean that it is not part of the listed building.
Buildings included in the list may not be demolished or altered in any way which would affect their character unless prior permission, in the form of listed building consent has been granted by the Council.

 

[gothiceye]

Thanks for this. Its really tricky as I've got a gut feeling that the modernisation work (all the plasterboard) was put there after the building was listed, and if so, quite possibly without the necessary paperwork - of course no way of proving the hunch right of course...

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand all the rules and regs, its just quite difficult to understand how they were perfectly happy for us to remove carpets and renovate floorboards, although a modern construction plasterboard wall is an issue, even when moving it will actually reveal the original character

The D and A statement is with the Council now, despite a really unhelpful woman there raising all sorts of minor issues (use the word 'current', not 'existing'... 'the line used to cross through is too long'... n'ext time you try to send the forms electronically to save paper, we will charge you for photocopying'... that sort of thing :-( ), so fingers crossed we will get an answer in about 8 weeks.......

 

[Pford75]

I sympathise.....

We're in the middle of reconstructing a flint wall which was demolished by a tree in the January storms.

Having got to the stage of the build where the mortar colour and brickwork now needs to be approved.....the CO is on holiday and nobody at the council is prepared to look at it in their absence.

So...I'm paying £800/week to keep my builders on site until the work can be approved.

And people wonder why some are tempted to do the work without approval?

 

[gothiceye]

*nods*

...even a simple out of office reply when they're not there or just a little bit of understanding for why you're at the end of the phone/email pulling your hair out would be nice! (Although the same could be said for the insurance company too!)

Fingers crossed we all get things sorted by christmas!

 

[Penners]

Fingers crossed we all get things sorted by christmas!

Which Christmas?

 

[NT]

I sympathise.....

We're in the middle of reconstructing a flint wall which was demolished by a tree in the January storms.

Having got to the stage of the build where the mortar colour and brickwork now needs to be approved.....the CO is on holiday and nobody at the council is prepared to look at it in their absence.

So...I'm paying £800/week to keep my builders on site until the work can be approved.

And people wonder why some are tempted to do the work without approval?

I thought you were allowed to repair things with identical materials and methods without permission


NT

 

[Flyfisher]

Presumably the wall was only partially demolished by the tree so if, when repaired, you can't 'see the join' then surely, by definition, it has been properly repaired.

And if it is just a repair why involve the CO in the first place?

 

[Pford75]

It was a large section of wall demolished (apx. 60ft) and in the rebuild we are reducing the height from 13ft to 6ft....so required LBC.

The consent was granted with various conditions...one of which was the approval of bricks and pointing by the CO before work continues.

 

[Flyfisher]

Thanks for the clarification; I can see the need for LBC given the reduction in height.

60ft - Quite a mess then!

 

[gothiceye]

this one preferably! Living in a building site is rapidly losing its appeal!