Another Flood!

[malcolm]

If you happen to have a cold water tank in the loft be sure to check that the muppet who fitted it didn't forget to include a pipe from the overflow to outside. Especially if you happen to be in Sweden when the float valve fails.

The house is rather wet, but aren't old houses brilliant! This was the old part of the house with the structure built 1600ish and the upper story modified in 1910. The natural slope they develop over time is great for drainage - excess water can drain from the upper stories onto the road through some gap. The inch thick horse hair ceilings seem very resistant to a deluge - I would have been upset to lose what I think is the original downstairs ceiling. The early 20C upstairs ceiling has some cracks but will be OK. I'll chuck the carpets and wet things like beds and loft insulation and organise some ventilation.

I guess getting some dehumidifiers would be an idea. Anyone have recommendations for which ones to buy? Screwfix is handy for me. The water appeared suddenly so removing it suddenly shouldn't be an issue. Any other drying out ideas would be most welcome.

 

[livias]

Hi
We have a couple of dehumidifiers sitting in the barn not being used at the moment. Pop over and borrow them. I am out this morning but there will be builders on site if you want to come then. Will be home 3ish
Anna

 

[MikeG]

Damn. Sorry to hear this. Maybe take the opportunity to convert to a pressurised system, and remove the need for a header tank. Bloody things are an absolute disaster.

 

[88v8]

Yes, but a low-pressure system is civilised. When one uses water, no noise. With a pressurised system, an orrible din every time one turns the tap on. If I bought a house with a high-pressure system, removing it would be a priority.

Worst overflow plumbing I saw was when some 'professional' plumber routed the overflow of the heating header tank into the cold water tank.

Rotten luck Malcolm. If you need a dehumidifier to keep, I recommend the Ebac 2650.
Otherwise hire a couple.
But beware of overdrying non-damp elements of the house.

Ivor

 

[malcolm]

Thanks Anna, that is very kind of you, I'll pop over this afternoon. It will be good to see progress on your house as I've not seen it this year.

The flooding isn't all bad - it has done an excellent job of stripping the woodchip wallpaper from the downstairs ceiling. I've been stripping out the loft insulation and have someone coming around to help me move heavy things so I can get the carpets up and start drying the house out. I'm not going to involve insurance as they'll just want to overboard ceilings in plasterboard and I prefer the cracks. Also it was difficult enough to find insurance even without a recent claim.

What would be the best way to dry out the upstairs floor? I guess removing a few floorboards will be sensible.

 

[MikeG]

Yes, but a low-pressure system is civilised. When one uses water, no noise. With a pressurised system, an orrible din every time one turns the tap on......

You're joking. I've had pressurised systems since 1997, in 3 different houses, and there is no noise whatever. Really, I have no idea what noise you could be talking about.

 

[noj]

I'd have to agree with MikeG - with a header tank you get the worst of all worlds - the mains pressure topping up the tank AND the tank filling too. But it all depends on the route the pipes take I suppose.

Anything that removes the need to hold a large volume of water in an elevated and potentially freezing space above the rest of the property has to be a plus

 

[Flyfisher]

Yes, but a low-pressure system is civilised. When one uses water, no noise. With a pressurised system, an orrible din every time one turns the tap on......

You're joking. I've had pressurised systems since 1997, in 3 different houses, and there is no noise whatever. Really, I have no idea what noise you could be talking about.

Yes, I was surprised by Ivor's comment as it's certainly not been my experience either. Our previous house was unpressurised and the cold water tank was distinctly audible when refilling itself whereas the pressurised system we've installed here is much quieter, plus there's no need for a noisy pump to give decent pressure for the shower.

 

[Flyfisher]

The flooding isn't all bad - it has done an excellent job of stripping the woodchip wallpaper from the downstairs ceiling. I've been stripping out the loft insulation and have someone coming around to help me move heavy things so I can get the carpets up and start drying the house out. I'm not going to involve insurance as they'll just want to overboard ceilings in plasterboard and I prefer the cracks. Also it was difficult enough to find insurance even without a recent claim.

What would be the best way to dry out the upstairs floor? I guess removing a few floorboards will be sensible.

We had a burst pipe running for a day or so some years back, though 'only' in an upstairs bedroom rather then the attic, and the drawing room ceiling became so sodden that the ceiling paper fell off of its own accord. Fortunately the rooms were empty and not being used so there was little collateral damage and we just left things to dry out naturally. By springtime everything was dry and the lime plaster ceiling seems to have survived unscathed.

 

[MatthewC]

Well done for still smiling, Malcolm.

In my experience, this is an important difference between plasterboard and lime; water makes plasterboard become useless very quickly, whereas lime needs to be mistreated for a decent period of time before it succumbs. At one church I knew, they didn't check the gutters regularly and so water poured over one wall for months; when it dried out, the lime plaster was popped and falling off... I think the same applied to the walls of this house where one downpipe had (10 ft up) a hole the size of my hand which sent all rainwater down the wall - over a period of time a lot of the mortar was just washed away.

As the architect running a SPAB course said: "if you manage the water that falls on the roof (and escapes from pipes and tanks!) then the building will not fall down on your watch".

Matthew

 

[wobs]

My parents had a pipe freeze and come apart in the loft when they on holiday once. Came back to the kitchen in 2" of water, and pretty much all the house wet.

The header tank in the loft was lagged, as was the loft ceiling, apart from a small section about 1' square, where the pipe passed through. This was where the pipe froze and broke.

You don't want any plumbing in the loft.

 

[Flyfisher]

Unfortunately, pipe lagging cannot prevent pipes from freezing, it can only slow down the rate at which water in a pipe loses (or gains) heat.

In a normally occupied house where water is regularly used, the water in the pipes does not remain 'still' for long enough to cool to below freezing, even in an unheated attic. But if the house is unoccupied for any length of time during a cold spell then the water in the pipes will remain static and will lose heat. Lagging will slow down the rate of heat loss but it will not, indeed it cannot, completely prevent it and given enough time and cold enough temperatures the water will freeze.

 

[a twig]

If you're really worried about pipes in loft you can install trace heating kits at quite a reasonable cost - temperature controlled so only come on to warm the pipes a bit when required.

 

[88v8]

Mmm, that's interesting.
Never had a freeze-up, but I take the point about static water. So, could leave a tap running or as you say trace heating.
We used an outdoor trace in the valley gutter of our previous house to prevent snow settling there.
Mind you we're under thatch here, I suppose that has a degree of insulating effect. In the past this was used as a holiday cottage so would have been empty a long time in winter.

Another minor advantage of a cold tank is that when the water is cut off, as has happened twice here for more than a day, one can still flush the loo.

Pressurised... well, in several recent hotels/B&Bs and in friends' houses, turning on the taps creates a hell of a din, swooshing noises as soon as anyone gets up in the morning. Whereas in our house, no noise.
Our cold tank is remote from the living space so we don't hear it filling. In our previous house I fitted a silencer, drilled a hole at the top to prevent back-siphonage. That was silent as well.

Ivor

 

[Flyfisher]

Another minor advantage of a cold tank is that when the water is cut off, as has happened twice here for more than a day, one can still flush the loo.

That's a fair point; it's happened to us once so far. Fortunately, a bucket of nearby pond or river water provides an adequate standby

 

[malcolm]

I run my pipes below the loft insulation, and the house was always heated so the cat didn't get cold. There are parts of pipe that pass above the insulation to connect to the tanks and I am motivated to do a redesign as the tanks are insulated so those pipes too could be warm side. I have bought an overflow pipe for the cold water tank as I thought that would be a good idea. Here are some photos for your amusement.

Previously the rooms were furnished. We got rid of a lot of junk. You can tell you don't need stuff when you can't be bothered to dry it out, and I can get on with those rooms now they are empty. Other half is a bit less positive as that was her side of the house and she didn't consider the stuff junk.

 

[Flyfisher]

You can tell you don't need stuff when you can't be bothered to dry it out

You can also tell you don't need stuff when it hasn't been unpacked many years after moving house. I still can't quite bring myself to discard unopened boxes but I'm now becoming pretty ruthless about the contents, which is to the benefit of a local charity that is happy to come and collect. I've even come to terms with letting go of most of my books, which was a really big step.

 

[CliffordPope]

"The header tank in the loft was lagged, as was the loft ceiling, apart from a small section about 1' square, where the pipe passed through. This was where the pipe froze and broke. "

That's the mistake. Lagging each of them separately isolates the tank and the pipes and leaves protection entirely subject to containing any residual heat in the static water.

The correct method is to lay the ceiling lagging over the pipes and the tank, isolating all the plumbing from the cold of the attic, and effectively incorporating them into the room below. Then all you need is minimal heating in the house.

 

[Zebra]

The correct method is to lay the ceiling lagging over the pipes and the tank, isolating all the plumbing from the cold of the attic, and effectively incorporating them into the room below. Then all you need is minimal heating in the house.

Wow. That is such a good idea. Does anyone actually do that though? I go into a lot of lofts for my work, and I've never seen it done like that.

Commiserations, Malcolm. I'm glad you're taking a philosophical view of things, it can't be easy to suffer such a setback.

 

[malcolm]

I fitted an overflow pipe today. It cost £15 and took 15 minutes to fit. Given a couple of other faults, and that the untidy nasty plastic push fit piping would have been installed by the same muppets I'm planning a new cold water tank and pipework. How do you size a cold water tank? Mine only feeds the hot water tank and seems bigger than it might need to be. I'm thinking about getting one that is loft hatch sized to reduce the weight.

As Clifford says, the theory for cold water tanks and pipes is not to have any insulation below them, but insulate to the same thickness as other insulation on top of them so they stay the same temperature as the house. The plumbers and electricians that have worked here have not really bothered with niceties like that.