Advice on restoring Victorian details.

[Hudson]

Hello,
I recently moved into a Victorian house (1850 - 1860) & discovered the exterior stone work needs more attention than I imagined so I'm hoping this forum can help guide me in the right direction. I'm doing this type of work for the 1st time due to budget so advice on what approach and materials I should use would be of great help. I have also done a certain amount of research but thought I'd keep my theories to myself for now.
I'll try and keep this simple by outlining each problem and attaching a photograph to help with any feed back people may have.
Problem 1.
The paint at the base of two sandstone pillars has peeled and flaked taking away the outer layer of stone with it. How do I prevent the crumbling and strengthen and re-build the surface?
Problem 2.
Some stone details have broken off and others will have to be removed. Is there a way of gluing these back on?
Problem 3.
There are cracks in the stone ledge above the door. What would you recommend I fix these with?
Problem 4.
The paint on the window cills has peeled and the stone surface is worn and un-even. What would you recommend I do to make this look good again?
Problem 5.
The wall edge has gone. Can I reconstruct this with a lime mortar?
Problem 6.
The render has deteriorated. Should I take this back to the base and render with a lime plaster?

regards

Roger

 

[JoceAndChris]

Welcome to the forum Roger, it looks like you have a lovely house there and a very rewarding project ahead.

I won't be much help I'm afraid, and really urge you to take your questions to a reputable stonemason who specialises in period properties. As far as I know we have no stonemasons contributing to our lively forum at present, so here are just a few of my very amateur musings (and I'd be interested to hear your theories too).

Womersleys advertise products that they claim consolidate and protect the structure of stone whilst maintaining its breathable qualities. If you give them a ring they will advise you I'm sure http://www.womersleys.co.uk/ These products are very expensive and I don't think have been tried out by anyone regularly posting here - but you never know.

From my reading and research on my own property it appears there are broadly two approaches to worn stone detailing: a) accept the damage as part of the character and patina of the property b) remove the stone and replace it with new - a specialist job.

I guess which you choose depends on the level and position of damage.

Here is "The Old House Handbook" on stone damage:

"Repairing exposed stone where surfaces have been partially eroded requires great skill and aesthetic judgement. Many types of stone erode gently and beautifully. imparting those subtle signs of age that you should cherish. Decaying stone is not necesssarily a problem that needs putting right"

On my very damaged interior stone steps I called out a stonemason from these people who are currently working on Horace Walpole's Strawberry Hill. http://www.ebowman.co.uk/ My idea was to reface the whole staircase with new Ancaster stone, or at least to make smooth by chipping away at the uneven surface created by the removal of brass nosings

The stonemason was appalled at any mention of chipping away Georgian stone, or any application of gunk over the top of them. He quoted to reface the whole staircase, but he said a Conservation Officer would probably want to see it left as it is. It would look better painted, and I understand limewash or other breathable paints can be applied directly to stone. Again, Womersleys would be able to advise about that, and Strippers of Sudbury could advise on the stripping before repainting.

Whatever you do, take your time over it and do your research as your opinions about what attention your property needs will change.

 

[Hudson]

Wow, I've just replied to your photoshop request at the same time as your very informative message arrived. I'll just digest your feedback now.

Thank you

Roger

 

[JoceAndChris]

8)

 

[Hudson]

Thanks for the welcome and compliment Joce, the forum's existence has already lifted some anxieties I had.
I just checked Womersley's site out and left an enquiry with them, they do look the business don't they. If only I could afford those guy's to do the job, that would be perfect. As it is, me attempting the work and using materials that are sympathetic to the building would be a happy trade-off to using the concrete contractors who appear to want to skim everything in site, so far.)
My theories are quite practical in the sense that I'm a novice who's only starting to try & understand the correct methods for this type of work. There's a good chance I'll of bitten too much off as I become more familiar with the skills required but at least it puts me in a stronger position if I ever needed to hire.
These are my dilemma's, thoughts and questions.
1.Starting with those crumbling pillars. Do I strip all of the paint and open a can of worms or maybe treat the exposed stone at the base by lime watering to strengthen the stone then rebuild the lost surface with a lime mortar and re-paint?
2.The parts that have broken off I imagined being able to use a lime mortar to stick these back into position. If so what type of mortar would be appropriate?
3.For the cracks that appear above the door ledge I thought I could pour some watered down lime putty into them where it might help bond and strengthen?
4.Where the sills are worn and uneven and the wall surface has blown and deteriorated, should I render with a lime plaster then use a natural paint to re-coat and if so what lime plaster do you use in a situation like this and does anybody recommend a paint?

As you can see, all of this initial thinking is quite up in the air but it's a start. Good advice on taking your time though, I was thinking I needed to resolve this before the Winter but I'm sure it will be OK if it had to wait.

 

[Penners]

Hello Roger-the-Photoshop-man

There are some useful thoughts from Joce above, and when it comes to stonework I'm probably less qualified than her to offer you any firm advice.

But the document below seems to have some good, expert guidance in it. My only caveat is that it comes from South Somerset Council, so some details may not necessarily apply to any and all types of stone.

But it's worth a read.

http://www.southsomerset.gov.uk/media/pdf/4/3/Care_and_repair_of_stonework_Part_2.pdf

By the way, welcome to the forum.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thta was a really fascinating link Mr P.

and when it comes to stonework I'm probably less qualified than her to offer you any firm advice.

Steady on old chap. That makes you not qualified at all, which I won't hear of!

 

[Penners]

That makes you not qualified at all

Yup.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Well, never mind Mr P, you've helped me no end.

These are my dilemma's, thoughts and questions.
1.Starting with those crumbling pillars. Do I strip all of the paint and open a can of worms or maybe treat the exposed stone at the base by lime watering to strengthen the stone then rebuild the lost surface with a lime mortar and re-paint?
2.The parts that have broken off I imagined being able to use a lime mortar to stick these back into position. If so what type of mortar would be appropriate?
3.For the cracks that appear above the door ledge I thought I could pour some watered down lime putty into them where it might help bond and strengthen?
4.Where the sills are worn and uneven and the wall surface has blown and deteriorated, should I render with a lime plaster then use a natural paint to re-coat and if so what lime plaster do you use in a situation like this and does anybody recommend a paint?

As you can see, all of this initial thinking is quite up in the air but it's a start. Good advice on taking your time though, I was thinking I needed to resolve this before the Winter but I'm sure it will be OK if it had to wait.

I think it will be OK if you take your time over this. The house won't fall down.

It seems to me (but I urge you to get this checked out by an expert, even if you have no budget to pay them at the moment you're perfectly entitled to call them out and pick their brains, I've had dozens of tradesmen round here and haven't used one yet - but will) that your house is caked in inappropriate stuff. As we all know, the rain/ damp gets in the cracks, can't escape and so causes damage underneath. The best "cure" then, is to gently remove all that modern paint / render by chemical means and minimal force and start again with lime render and limewash.

From the pics you've posted, the worn sections of stone look like they've always had a painted finish - can anyone else comment on this? This is good news for you as the fresh paint will hide the repair work, such as join lines where sections have been stuck back on with lime mortar. I can't give you recipes for making up mortars and renders as I haven't done it but if you buy "The Old House Handbook ", Hunt and Suhr, all the mixtures are in there.

I haven't yet read anything conclusive to say lime watering strengthens stone. It seems to be a fairly new area. Anyone care to comment on that?

 

[philpjuk100]

if you buy "The Old House Handbook ", Hunt and Suhr, all the mixtures are in there.
A great book,I received a copy for my birthday,lots of good advice on most "old house"matters,phil.

 

[Hudson]

Penners - thanks for the welcome and the document, it was definitely worth the read.

Joce - Unfortunatley the house is caked in inappropriate stuff such as a painted brick front! I think on reflection I should tackle the removal of this and prepping the surface as stage 1, then begin stage 2 (stone and rendering issues) next Spring by which time I should have a better idea on what to do. The stone does looks like it has been painted in a while with many layers. I wonder if these features were intended to be painted from the beginning?

philpjuk100 - This book is sounding like a good buy, thanks.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

I suspect that quite a lot of the "stone" ornament may actually be stucco or some other composition material. The way the cornice in picture 2 is falling apart does not look like the way stone usually deteriorates.
The Victorians used a variety of plasters, renders and paints and entirely lime-based products may not be what was originally used.

 

[philpjuk100]

if you buy "The Old House Handbook ", Hunt and Suhr, all the mixtures are in there.
A great book,I received a copy for my birthday,lots of good advice on most "old house"matters,phil.

I know I wrote this but only after a quick "flick" through,but after trying to read it last night I find the pages are out of order,some are duplicated and some missing! is this just my copy? I have contacted amazon and await their comment (and a new copy) with all the right pages in the correct order! phil.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Oh, how silly it must be! Mine's fine Phil.

I suspect that quite a lot of the "stone" ornament may actually be stucco or some other composition material. The way the cornice in picture 2 is falling apart does not look like the way stone usually deteriorates.
The Victorians used a variety of plasters, renders and paints and entirely lime-based products may not be what was originally used.

Well that puts the cat amongst the pigeons then doesn't it? How can you a) find out what your house is made of b) understand what to repair it with?

Even if lime-based products weren't originally used, am I right in thinking that doesn't mean modern cement repair will get along with the original fabric? Do come back and say a bit more dear Mr Hughes. (Roger, Gareth Hughes is a Conservation Officer and architect and as much of an expert on old houses as you're likely to find)

 

[Hudson]

Yes that has thrown a few questions up in the air, where can you find out what your house is made of?

Gareth, you suspect a lot of the ornament may actually be stucco or some other composition material. I've attached close-ups of the blown cornice below on the off chance some one more qualified could identify it's properties. And sorry if this sounds optimistic but you never know, it may be obvious to the trained eye.

Also, Wikipedia mentions that in the later part of the nineteenth century, Portland cement was added with increasing frequency in an attempt to improve its durability which leads me to believe there's a good chance of it being present. Therefore, how important is it to use matching materials for repairs such as sticking these broken off details back on? Lets say there's a composition material that I can't identify, would a lime based mortar do just as good a job as cement?

 

[philpjuk100]

if you buy "The Old House Handbook ", Hunt and Suhr, all the mixtures are in there.
A great book,I received a copy for my birthday,lots of good advice on most "old house"matters,phil.

I know I wrote this but only after a quick "flick" through,but after trying to read it last night I find the pages are out of order,some are duplicated and some missing! is this just my copy? I have contacted amazon and await their comment (and a new copy) with all the right pages in the correct order! phil.

I have recieved a new copy from amazon and they do not want the original copy back,would anyone want a copy of"the old house handbook" with "all the right pages but not necessarily in the right order"for nowt? just let me know,I have still got the amazon packaging and can send it,phil.

 

[Hudson]

hey Phil, "for nowt" that would be great. Shall I PM you my address?

 

[JoceAndChris]

Yes that has thrown a few questions up in the air, where can you find out what your house is made of?

Well, I got a bit frustrated with not knowing so went round with a hammer to find out. (actually not as bad as it sounds, I have an awful lot of the building materials of the house just lying about the garden. There used to be a quarry 5 minutes away long, long ago and I suspect stealing went on judging from what's in the garden)

I took some pics of the results so you can see how things weather.


Here's York stone - there's a York stone plinth around the bottom of the house so quite a few remnants of that. The layering of the delamination is very typical of York stone. You can split it into layed fragments as easily as disassembling a Tiramisu.

Here's Ancaster limestone, it's very white and prone to cracking. It does however take severe whacking with a hammer to get to that crumbling white stuff that dusts off on your finger, but does not disintegrate. The piece on the left is the kind of rubble stone the cottage is made of, the piece on the right is a spare section of battlement which we had wondered might be a later addition and made of a composite material.

Here's the battlements on the porch all together

I'm missing granite, a pity. I'd imagine it's harder than anything this house is built of.

That probably doesn't help much but your photo looks different to the stone remnants I've broken apart, especially your top pic. If they were mine I'd be sending them off to a geologist for analysis.

 

[philpjuk100]

hey Phil, "for nowt" that would be great. Shall I PM you my address?

Its yours just send me your address and next time I go to the post office Ill get it off to you!

 

[Penners]

The layering of the delamination is very typical of York stone. You can split it into layed fragments as easily as disassembling a Tiramisu.

I trust the tiramisu wasn't listed?