Advice on gravel needed

[Flyfisher]

Au contraire, it's an argument for making haste and getting the contract before the rate changes for later entrants.

There was talk of retrospective legislation Biff. I wouldn't put it past this government :evil: .

My understanding is that FITs are paid for by the energy companies and funded by increases in energy bills, not from government revenues. So there's little incentive for government to change things - at least, not to save themselves any money.

So those who can afford the capital investment are sitting pretty while those who cannot will have to endure higher energy prices to fund the FIT payments to those who could afford more in the first place. Probably not the original intention but an example of the law-of-unintended-consequences.

 

[worms]

Feed in Tariff is 41.3p per unit plus 3p per unit for the 50% of deemed export plus the savings on what you don't buy on sunny days makes every unit generated effectively worth about 50p. Modules are guaranteed to last 25 years. Assume that the inverter will die and need replacing once in that period.

Should see a return on capital of ~9%

In practice, the return on capital will probably be much, much higher, since the retail value of electricity could, arguably, rise by 400-500% over the next ten years*, never mind the 25 year life of the modules. In time, the FIT could become a minor consideration compared to the savings on the cost of the energy that you are no longer buying from the grid!

*according to some doom-sayers...

 

[biffvernon]

In practice, the return on capital will probably be much, much higher, since the retail value of electricity could, arguably, rise by 400-500% over the next ten years*, never mind the 25 year life of the modules. In time, the FIT could become a minor consideration compared to the savings on the cost of the energy that you are no longer buying from the grid!

Would you Adam n Eve it? And there was me thinking there was an abundance of new oil waiting to be found.

 

[biffvernon]

So those who can afford the capital investment are sitting pretty while those who cannot will have to endure higher energy prices to fund the FIT payments to those who could afford more in the first place.

Of course the main purpose of government is to rob from the poor to give to the rich. It was ever thus.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

So those who can afford the capital investment are sitting pretty while those who cannot will have to endure higher energy prices to fund the FIT payments to those who could afford more in the first place.

Of course the main purpose of government is to rob from the poor to give to the rich. It was ever thus.

I must remember that biff next time I recall my pay freeze, the loss of child benefit, the extra 3% I will now contribute to my pension, the longer I will work before I get it, and the generally eye-watering level of taxation Labour left me with! :wink:

I can't argue that it isn't fair that my family shoulder a bigger share of the burden - but other than an overdue rebalancing of the welfare "entitlement" culture of dependency, much of the CSR seems to be going in one direction (and it's out of my pocket!) :roll:

 

[biffvernon]

the generally eye-watering level of taxation Labour left me with! :wink:

At least it's still lower than most European countries. Who'd want to live in Scandinavia?

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Well, right now I'd swap Scandinavia for the temperature in my lounge!!

Interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Well, right now I'd swap Scandinavia for the temperature in my lounge!!

Interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

Interesting indeed. Most of the countries I've visited, where things seem to work properly, where the locals seem to be happiest, and from which I return thinking "why can't we do that?" have higher rates of taxation than us. Most of the complete dumps have a lower rate. How nice to have my liberal prejudices confirmed, even by the dreadful "Heritage Foundation".

Tuppence on income tax and no cuts, but better direction in spending the public purse, please.

 

[LadyArowana]

Interesting indeed. Most of the countries I've visited, where things seem to work properly, where the locals seem to be happiest, and from which I return thinking "why can't we do that?" have higher rates of taxation than us. Most of the complete dumps have a lower rate. How nice to have my liberal prejudices confirmed, even by the dreadful "Heritage Foundation".

Perhaps further fact finding missions are necessary. Zimbabwe ( 49.3 ) ranks between Belgium ( 46.8 ) and Sweden ( 49.7 ) and I know where I would rather be, although I don't have any direct experience. I also highly recommend Japan ( 27.4 ), Hong Kong ( 12.8 ) and Singapore ( 13 ), I doubt you would enjoy Singapore, liberal views and many other things are not encouraged and the overwhelming majority of the population are fine with that, democracy in action....?

 

[Pford75]

Perhaps further fact finding missions are necessary. Zimbabwe ( 49.3 ) ranks between Belgium ( 46.8 ) and Sweden ( 49.7 ) and I know where I would rather be, although I don't have any direct experience. I also highly recommend Japan ( 27.4 ), Hong Kong ( 12.8 ) and Singapore ( 13 ), I doubt you would enjoy Singapore, liberal views and many other things are not encouraged and the overwhelming majority of the population are fine with that, democracy in action....?

I agree. High taxation doesn't necessarily equal happy population and vice versa. Russia in the 90s is a case in point....the general populace in one of the largest 'low taxation' countries of the world were not exactly having a wonderful time. Views will vary depending on who you speak to Gareth on your trips......Views differ greatly across sections of society. UAE is a great example - plenty of expats and Emiratiis I know, think it is wonderful (0% income tax).... But the labourers from the Indian subcontinent have a very different view.

I don't mind admitting that I'm now at a point where for every extra pound I earn, the govt takes 55%ish in tax and NI....and if I add on the tax I incur when I try to use the disposable income (VAT, fuel tax etc.) the real marginal tax rate is probably close to 80% on some goods. It's already a disincentive for me to work any harder(what's the point in trying to invest/speculate when the tax threshold is so high). Like many others, I'm working on ways to reduce my tax bill.....whereas 2 years ago I just accepted it. You do cross a line where people feel the tax rate is 'unfair' and seek ways of mitigating it....resulting in lower tax revenues overall.

Whilst I value our local authority COs highly :wink: Id very much rather my authority didn't spend my taxes on glossy brochures telling me they've been spending our money on, or on 'literacy outreach coordinators' at £28k plus pension, or on translating LA leaflets into 12 different languages etc. My mother has just retired from 40yrs in local govt and I am all too aware of the wastage which exists and the relatively sheltered lifestyle which some lead in comparison to the private sector.

 

[Flyfisher]

I don't mind admitting that I'm now at a point where for every extra pound I earn, the govt takes 55%ish in tax and NI....and if I add on the tax I incur when I try to use the disposable income (VAT, fuel tax etc.) the real marginal tax rate is probably close to 80% on some goods. It's already a disincentive for me to work any harder (what's the point in trying to invest/speculate when the tax threshold is so high).

I came to the same conclusion, even more so when I took into account the 60-70 hour weeks and all the time away from home travelling on business - fun at first but it wears thin after a while - not to mention the time and cost of commuting (although I was fortunate to mostly avoid that).

You do cross a line where people feel the tax rate is 'unfair' and seek ways of mitigating it....resulting in lower tax revenues overall.

Which is supported by the experience of countries that have introduced 'flat taxes', where the lower tax rates have resulted in higher tax revenues as people are disinclined to try to avoid a more reasonable tax rate and are happy to pay up. Everyone understands the need for taxes but they are also quite good at evaluating their quality of life. Getting up at 7am to commute to work and getting home at 7pm for 5 days a week is a huge 'cost' for anyone. Add a few more hours of work in the evenings (courtesy of laptops, the internet and Blackberries) and it's an even bigger cost. Now include the fact that you're actually working for the government until about October each year (Pford's example above) and it's not surprising there is so much interest in 'down-sizing' these days.

 

[biffvernon]

Id very much rather my authority didn't spend my taxes on ... 'literacy outreach coordinators'

Absolutely. We don't want people to learn to read, do we. They might get all uppity.

 

[Flyfisher]

But isn't it the job of schools to teach people to read? (if not the parents, but let's not get too controversial :wink: )

 

[robgil]

how much area do you need for an average 2 bed house? i would love to get solar power but my roof couldnt support it so i would need to put it somewhere else ,also if you were totally off grid can the power be stored for a rainy day (or night) ?

Unlikely that the roof can't support it, unless it's thatched. Heaviest loads are the bloke doing the fixing.
How big? Bigger the better. For maximum rate FIT don't exceed 4kWp or around 28 square metres.

Totally off grid is a different kind of animal. A wind turbine becomes much more attractive. Batteries are expensive to buy and maintain. You have to think through the whole household energy management.

Do you live in an off-grid thatched average 2 bed house?

Thatched yes , off grid i sometimes wish. so far off grid not even the post man knows where i am.
i suppose totally off grid comfortably would take huge consideration , i do like my mod cons.

 

[skier-hughes]

But isn't it the job of schools to teach people to read? (if not the parents, but let's not get too controversial :wink: )

Adult education?
We have parent support workers at our local primary, how do you expect the children to learn to read succesfully if the parents can't?

 

[AMc]

Thatched yes , off grid i sometimes wish. so far off grid not even the post man knows where i am.
i suppose totally off grid comfortably would take huge consideration , i do like my mod cons.

IMHO if you are 'on grid' for electricity you're in a much better position than someone 'off grid' to become "functionally self sufficent" in electricity at a sensible cost because you have no energy storage issues - use the grid as your "battery". By pumping what you can into the grid when you're not using it and drawing back when the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing you get the best of both worlds. At FIT rates this makes financial sense even if your consumption is greater than your production.
If you use a 100% renewable electricity provider then you're "ethically" off gas, coal and nuclear even if realistically there will be watts generated those ways going through your TV at certain times of the day.
Of course the smaller you can make your consumption - with efficient appliances and sensible usage - then the easier it becomes to meet that tipping point where you're a net contributor.

 

[Flyfisher]

But isn't it the job of schools to teach people to read? (if not the parents, but let's not get too controversial :wink: )

Adult education?
We have parent support workers at our local primary, how do you expect the children to learn to read succesfully if the parents can't?

I've no problem with adult education, I just think it's a sad state of affairs that it includes basic literacy.

Mrs FF used to do voluntary reading support in our local primary school and said it was one of the most rewarding and depressing experiences; rewarding when she could see children start to realise the joy of reading and see their self-confidence blooming, depressing when she realised the almost total lack of support most were getting at home.

Actually, I do have a problem with adult education - it seems, from my limited attempts, to be rather thin on the ground these days, unless you're looking for a job training course. Do local "evening classes" still exist? I wanted to go on a welding course a couple of years ago but could only find expensive, certificated courses intended for people trying to retrain for alternative employment. It was a similar thing with brick-laying.

Whatever happened to evening classes in the local school workshops where you could brush up practical skills under the friendly guidance of a local expert?

 

[Flyfisher]

If you use a 100% renewable electricity provider then you're "ethically" off gas, coal and nuclear even if realistically there will be watts generated those ways going through your TV at certain times of the day.

I think that's a bit optimistic. Since only 6% of UK electricity is generated from renewables, 94% of the electricity you consume from the grid comes from coal, gas and nuclear, whichever company you actually choose to pay. That's not to say it's not a good thing to encourage the renewables industry but there is a very long way to go yet.

The point about using the grid as a battery is a good one though.

 

[AMc]

I think that's a bit optimistic. Since only 6% of UK electricity is generated from renewables, 94% of the electricity you consume from the grid comes from coal, gas and nuclear, whichever company you actually choose to pay. That's not to say it's not a good thing to encourage the renewables industry but there is a very long way to go yet.

The point about using the grid as a battery is a good one though.

Good Energy buy a watt of renewable energy for every watt consumed by their customers.
This can't always occur simultaneously but the promise is that the balance is 100% on the open energy market.
The customer pays a small premium which in turn boosts the market demand for renewable energy beyond the half hearted regulatory demands in place on the major suppliers.
It isn't perfect but its a whole lot better than the alternative of continuing to passively accept the standard fuel mix to save a few quid on my bill.
As the owner of an all electric heating system my consumption and costs are much more than most so it's particularly important to me that I exercise that buying power where it produces the most positive change.

Other suppliers Ecotricity and green tarrifs from other providers are also a lot better than nothing.

 

[Flyfisher]

Yes, all a step in the right direction, but it just seems a bit disingenuous to claim you're only using renewable electricity. Presumably, Good Energy, can only match their customers watt-for-watt because their customers don't consume more than 6% of the grid capacity, because there wouldn't be any more renewable power remaining after that. Or, taking things to extreme, if everyone signed up to Good Energy or Ecotricity they would be forced to buy 94% of their wholesale electricity from the coal, gas and nuclear generating companies.

But when faced with the opportunity to build a severn barrage scheme that could reliably power the whole of wales indefinitely, we suddenly get all concerned about a few non-endangered wading birds and prefer, instead, to build more nuclear and "clean coal" generating stations.