Advice needed on order of restoration work

[MartinJB]

Hi... I am hoping somebody can help me.

We are just about to start the renovation of a detached Edwardian Property... planning to go almost back to the shell and build upwards.

Below is the list of work we are planning, in the order that I think we should do it in. Can you tell me if this order makes sense (I don't want to inadvertently undo work I have just had done).

Here goes....

1. Wallpaper & carpet & internal fittings removal
2. Full re-wire
3. Roofing work (not a totally new roof)
4. Re-plastering
5. New central heating system
6. Renovate internal woodwork & doors
7. Fireplace renovations
8. New bathroom
9. New kitchen
10. Replacement windows & external doors
11. Internal decoration
12. External Re-pointing

We are also planning a number of other jobs that I do not think are on any critical path. These being...

A. Cellar Conversion and side extension to internalise cellar entrance
B. New lean-to garage
C. New patch & drive
D. Landscaping of gardens.

Any critical input would be very gratefully received.

Thanks,
Martin.

 

[biffvernon]

Hi... I am hoping somebody can help me.

You mean otherwise you've got to do that little lot on your own? Over the weekend?

 

[biffvernon]

If you replace the kitchen window after fitting a new kitchen you'll be in a mess. Do all the jobs that create dust before bringing shiny new things in.

Rember that the Edwardians still used lime and linseed. So you won't be needing to use ANY cement, gypsum or paints based on oils and resins from the petroleum industry.

 

[NT]

Since I dont recognise you, I have to ask if its really necessary to do all that? Its a pretty good way to ruin a buildings character.

NT

 

[middi]

..............but if you must insist in wrecking the place, this is the order you should do it in:-

.......3
........12
........10
.........1
.........2
.........5
..........7
...........4
..........8
...........9
...........6
..........11

 

[MartinJB]

Thanks for the advice so far... and comments noted.

We certainly don't intend to rip the character out of the building... it is in a pretty bad way though.

Thx,
MJB

 

[NT]

Why dont you post some pics, as its unusual a building needs gutting.

NT

 

[Moo]

You say "re-plastering".

From this, should we infer that you're going to re-plaster the whole lot? or a couple of walls and/or ceilings? or just do a bit of patching?

- and, Why?

I do hope you're not going to rip out acres of original lime plastering just because it doesn't look 'new' any more, and pay someone to replace it with gypsum (see Biff's wise words)

More info (plus pics, if possible) would enable the experts here to be much more helpful.

 

[MartinJB]

NT... we will take possession in a couple of weeks; as soon as we do I wil post some pics.

Moo... Where will we re-plaster? Where we need to following the re-wire & heating, where the plaster falls off when the (1970s&1980s) wallpaper is removed, and where there are currently holes due to the roof leaking.

A bit more info just to hopefully ease some concerns...

- When I say removal of internal fittings I am not meaning original internal fittings

- Window replacement: we are replacing aluminium double glazing with timber framed windows glazed with older glass and leaded lights

- Re-wire & central heating: we are replacing systems that have been added to a number of times over the last few decades (one room currently has 3 radiators)

- External doors are not originals (aluminium). I will be replacing with either some of the orignals whic are currently languishing in the cellars, or using these to have exact copies made.

- New kitchen & bathroom: again the replacement of 1970s installations

- External re-pointing: Currently it is red mastic

I think the only thing I am doing that should incur anybody's wrath is internalising the cellar entrance through putting an extension on the side of the property. Without this they are not useable for my requirements.

Pictures to follow...

 

[biffvernon]

Window replacement: we are replacing aluminium double glazing with timber framed windows glazed with older glass and leaded lights

Excellent - but how are you going to comply with Buildings Regulations Part-L, which requires that any replacement windows have a U-value of no more than 2 ?

 

[MartinJB]

If it becomes a problem then I guess I may have to compromise on the main panes and have sealed units made to go in there... reserving the older glass for the leaded lights at the top of each window.

What would you suggest?

 

[skier-hughes]

Our conservation officer wanted us to retro fit single glazing, which we were happy to do. Building control and planning had a different idea.
The CO argued with the planning officer, who came back to us and said that;
1. The government had decided we must all have double glazing and it wasn't up to him to say that house will look nice with single glazing so I'll let you do it.
2. If we could prove to him that it was neccessary and that other works we would do would sav more enrgy than single glazing would lose he would consider it.
Two days of research and letter writing ended up with us going through all sorts of things, like aluminium conducting the heat away, wood not, fitting heavy curtains, replacing the inefficient Rayburn with a new oil fired boiler for central heating, insulating the loft, etc etc ended up with him saing no, so we have double glazing and a disgruntled CO, who said he couldn't force teh planning guy.

Our house is not listed, but 14th century in places.

 

[NT]

Re replacement windows, the BR requirements are now pretty stringent, and afaik only dg will comply in most cases. There are exceptions, which someone else can perhapd enlarge on.

Leaded lights are the worst of all window types energy wise, but secondary glazing can be used with them. I recall seeing a copmany doing 2ndary glazing designed to not be noticeable for character properties. I've had no experience with them.

http://www.stormwindows.co.uk/products.htm


I dont know any details re your extension, but flat plate solar space heating is very cheap to install and has excellant payback, so may be worth a look. It may of course offset some window losses, thus enabling compliance with leaded lights.

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/solar_barn_project.htm


NT

 

[biffvernon]

I can't see how you are going to get away with a window that has a U-Value greater than 2 unless it is a listed building or of historic character within a conservation area.

The new Building Regs from this April allow a whole house approach to Part-L whereby extra good insulation in one area can compensate for failure elsewhere. It's rather complicated and I wouldn't get your hopes up but you might discuss it with the Buildings Control officer and sound out his/her attitude.

There are various fake stick-on leaded things but... they're fake.

You could have a double glazed secondary glazing system behind your old leaded lights. I've seen it done in Holland with medieval windows. It can look authentic from the outside and the resulting triple glazing will keep you cosy. You'd have to find a joiner willing to break into new ground :wink:

 

[Peter]

As middi said - roof first.

 

[Gervase]

Sounds horribly like the sort of list we had with our place.
As has been said, get the outside envelope sorted first. That means starting with the roof.

If you're hiring scaffolding, capitalise on the time by doing the repointing and the windows while it's up. If you're fiddling with the fireplaces, do you need a flue liner? Do it while you've got the scaffold up.
Only when you've done with the outside (including render, limewash, new bargeboards, exterior woodwork and bird-proof cages on your chimneys) should you even contemplate coming inside.
Then, in your position, I'd do:
1: The first fix electrics (assuming there's no new studwork to do first);
2: Boiler install and the plumbing to the point where you know your radiators, bath, loo, basins etc are going to go (essentially a first fix plumb);
3: Plastering;
4: Second fix electrics, radiators, thermostats etc;
4: Internal woodwork and doors (apart from the architraves and skirting, which would go on before the final plaster coat);
5: New bathroom (with final plumb);
6: Kitchen (with ditto);

Others will have other views, however.

 

[Ian Bond]

See 3.6 Other Buildings
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/upload/pdf/ign_partl_buildingregs.pdf

Owners of non-listed Period Properties that are not in Conservation Areas are not necessarily forced to use sealed unit double glazing for replacement windows.

Trying to use the whole house method to achieve the necessary values to allow single glazing did not work for me. I could get nowhere near the target values. The area of glazing is tiny (less 5% of external envolope) and I'm in a mid terrace.

I'd try and avoid having to fit double glazing. It will eventually fail and mist up and have to be chucked. Far better to insulate elsewhere as best you can without ruining the building,

 

[MartinJB]

BiffVernon (or anyone else...)

Could you recommend anyone to manufacture and fit replacement casement windows in the Manchester area?

I have a person who can do the glass for the lights...

Thanks,
MJB

 

[biffvernon]

I'll make anything so long as its in oak.

That English Heritage document that Ian linked to is well worth reading, but I'd be surprised if you find a way to avoid double glazing. The trick is to design it in such a way that it looks good (and not fail and mist up - it's not inevitable)

 

[Ian Bond]

I've been reading a book called Brass Castles recently, all about the grand houses built with new money from the industrial revolution / textile industry boom in Yorkshire.

There was one advanced house with "double glazing", two sheets of glass in the frame, obviously not sealed units like nowadays. Must've helped keep the heating bill down a bit in such a large house.

And I also remember seeing something similar described in relation to a Roman bath house, with twin panes of glass - not much new under the sun.

I do worry about keeping the sealed units dry when set in timber frames, plus if the units fail, the expense of replacement.

The real trouble I have is my windows are 16 pane jobs, so getting the glazing bars right is tough. Maybe 2 over 2 or 1 over 1 windows are easier to DG?

If you've got lots of windows accounting for a large %age of the external building envelope then perhaps dg would help a great deal. With my house the glazed area is less then 10 meters sq. so the savings are not that great.

I am kind of coming around to dg, but not the stuff that 90% of folk seem to fit, obviously. Although sadly that's what actually goes into the unlisted vernacular cottages like mine, and I am sure that one day someone will rip out my house's windows and give em the plastic makeover.

Biff's type of oak windows do sound like an excellent way to save fuel, plus keep the character of your building - having a pane of wobbly handmade glass makes an incredible difference to the overall effect. And I'd guess that if they're not sealed units, you don't have the problem of failure, disposal and replacement. That's another thing that concerns me - I wonder what'll happen when my neighbours placcy windows fail - does the glass get reused or buried?

If the glass is being chucked, it seems absurd that the most long lasting and durable building material is being turned into a disposable item with a 25 year life span. I hope I am wrong.

Without giving away your trade secrets, Biff, can you make your windows
a) meet the U value set by part L of the regs
b) avoid the misting up / replacement problem that blights sealed unit DG?

I think that a lot of the trouble with sealed unit failure is attributable to poor installation - what works in the factory sometimes fails on-site. Things get damaged, poorly fitted, and fail early.