A plague of plastic windows....

[MdB]

A plague of plastic windows....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8114881.stm

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Wheeww, at last something might get through about these beastly placcy windows. I am sorely tempted to send the article to every Estate Agent in our Market Town. The number of house sale details that we received last year which proudly pointed out the upvc windows went straight into the re cycle bin. Regrettably we have inherited 7 horrors at the back of our house, however the front windows are still wooden but in the minority within the street scene, supposedly a designated Conservation Area.

I recently sent a placcy window salesman away with a flea in his ear by remarking that if he really wanted to continue to add to carbon footprint , landfill, and health problems for his Grandchildren ( he was obviously that old) then he is going the right way about it, and perhaps he should consider changing his job to something with more awareness.

 

[Flyfisher]

I was quite encouraged by that article until I reached the "have your say" comments. Right or wrong, perception is what counts and, for whatever reasons, lots of people seem to like the alleged convenience and performance of plastic windows, with appearance apparently being rather low on the priority list. I guess we're seeing 'the market' in action.

I say 'alleged' because I've never lived in a house with plastic windows and have no burning ambition ever to do so, so I've no first-hand experience to judge if they're as good as many people seem to think.

But I have to say that, as a piece of mechanical design, sash windows have never greatly impressed me; the sliding surfaces need a suitable gap to stop seasonal sticking as the frame moves, hence the intrinsic draughtiness of the design. Plus the sash cords wear and break, requiring almost complete dismantling of the window to repair. Painting is also far more fiddly, leading to stuck sashes. A number of our sash windows haven't been opened for decades judging by the paintwork. All of which is a great pity because they look wonderful.

Casement windows seem to be a far superior design in almost every respect.

 

[ljn]

Sorry about the double post. Hope the admin can delete mine...

There isn't much of a defense of the echo advantages of not skipping the original windows.
- Or the environmental impact of producing the plastic ones.
- Or the fact that the plastic ones are not degradable or recyclable.
- Or that they have a short life span

If "article four directions" are place in a Conservation Area, planning permission is required to replace windows with plastic.
Our conservation area does not have this in place. Something I would like to change.

 

[Feltwell]

But I have to say that, as a piece of mechanical design, sash windows have never greatly impressed me; the sliding surfaces need a suitable gap to stop seasonal sticking as the frame moves, hence the intrinsic draughtiness of the design. Plus the sash cords wear and break, requiring almost complete dismantling of the window to repair. Painting is also far more fiddly, leading to stuck sashes. A number of our sash windows haven't been opened for decades judging by the paintwork. All of which is a great pity because they look wonderful.

Casement windows seem to be a far superior design in almost every respect.

Don't really agree with you there. In their original design I agree on the "gap necessary to stop sticking causes draughts" point, but if you replace the parting and staff beads with ones with brush seals in, this seems to remove this problem - they allow enough movement whilst stopping draughts. I'm part way through doing my windows and so far, having been through 1 winter with the first windows done, it seems a very effective cure. It also makes them far easier to slide, as there is much less friction between wood and nylon brush pile than between wood and wood. I also changed the pulleys for ones with ball bearings in, rather than plain bearings, which run far more smoothly.

Similarly on sash cords - if you are a purist and stick to waxed cotton then yes they will eventually rot and break, and they are a pain to replace as you have to disturb the interior decoration to do so. If you swop to modern woven nylon cord or similar (yes, I know the purists won't like it) then they should last long enough to not be a problem. If you have chains instead of cords then better still.

I think sashes also score above casements on 2 more points:-

More effective ventilation - theory being that when opened with both sashes at mid-way point the warm air that rises to near the ceiling is circulated with the cooler air coming in the bottom of the sash
Lack of intrusion when opened - important on those older houses that front directly onto a pavement.

I can't argue on the painting of them though, it is a pain. Worth it, but still a pain.

 

[Flyfisher]

I agree about the options to draughtproof and update the cords/pulleys - and they are on my 'to do' list - but I think such things only help support my point about the poor basic design.

I'm not entirely convinced about the improved ventilation argument, but the point about lack of intrusion when open is, I think, a good one and one I hadn't really considered. But you're right, of course, and even if the windows don't face directly onto a pavement I think sashes look much more attractive when open compared to 'messy' casements at all angles.

All of which makes me want to get our sashes unstuck as soon as possible, well, after the structural stuff obviously.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Painting is not really a problem if you paint well with linseed oil paint - you have to re-oil after 5-7 years, and then re-paint a similar period of time later. Haven't yet got to this point, but whilst it is indeed more painting than uPVC windows, that's because you can't paint uPVC - it just degrades until you need to replace it.

I think you can take the purist argument a bit far - if the Georgians or Victorians had access to nylon cord or draught strips, then undoubtedly they would have used these originally. I see no harm in using non-detrimental materials/methods to enhance the life/functionality of period features. (NB emphasis on "non-detrimental")

As for the loons on the BBC site who think that uPVC lasts longer and looks better than wood - let them live in Barrat boxes!

 

[Feltwell]

All of which makes me want to get our sashes unstuck as soon as possible, well, after the structural stuff obviously.

I found that enormously satisfying - getting something that has not worked for years back moving again! Particularly on one arch-topped window where it was obvious that it must have been nailed shut many many years ago as the way it had been built meant that it would never have worked very well. Lots of faffing around machining off the original, badly worn edges of the sashes and stitching on new timber to a different shape and dimension, but a lot of satisfaction as the top arched sash works perfectly for I think the first time ever.

I think the ventilation does work better with sashes than casements - we've gone from having it so that only the bottom sashes moved, to having both working again in some rooms. Although the open area is the same - i.e. bottom sash fully up versus both sashes being in the middle - the both sashes in the middle option does seem to make the room quite a bit cooler. But of course that could be wishful thinking to justify all the effort involved in their restoration!

Painting is not really a problem if you paint well with linseed oil paint - you have to re-oil after 5-7 years, and then re-paint a similar period of time later. Haven't yet got to this point, but whilst it is indeed more painting than uPVC windows, that's because you can't paint uPVC - it just degrades until you need to replace it.

Agreed, the only downsides with linseed paint are the amount of preparation required (you are supposed to strip back to bare wood) and the drying time, which means that you have to board the window up for quite a long time to get all the necessary coats of paint on - maybe I'm being too fussy but with at least 3 coats in 2 colours, I don't think with a 24 hour drying time I could have a window boarded up for less than a week. In my case luckily most rooms have 2 windows, so I'm not plunging anyone into permanent darkness! Linseed paint is lovely stuff to work with though, and if it lasts as promised then the inital effort will be worth it.

I think you can take the purist argument a bit far - if the Georgians or Victorians had access to nylon cord or draught strips, then undoubtedly they would have used these originally. I see no harm in using non-detrimental materials/methods to enhance the life/functionality of period features. (NB emphasis on "non-detrimental")

I'm completely with you there - I don't see any harm in using modern pozidrive screws where they will not be seen for example, and although you can see things like sash cords I don't think the modern equivalents look so far out of place to be a problem. Similarly my new sash pulleys are a bit shiny at the moment, but the originals were getting very worn at the axles and these new ball-bearing equipped ones should last almost indefinitely. They'll dull down eventually. Some progress is good - I don't believe that any of us would not fit a modern breathable membrane if re-tiling a roof, for example.

 

[Feltwell]

I had to laugh at one neighbour's less that subtle response to a persistant young UPVC salesman - "Would it look appropriate if your old granny had a boob job? No? Well plastic won't look right on this old girl either!"

 

[Flyfisher]

Some progress is good - I don't believe that any of us would not fit a modern breathable membrane if re-tiling a roof, for example.

Certainly not me, I've used loads of the stuff during repairs to our roof and as a result it's now properly waterproof, possibly for the first time in its history. Pantiles? - Pah! Another example of poor design, though thankfully now able to be worked-around using modern materials.

 

[chuckey]

Two things I don't like about plastic framed windows are , the thickness of the frames and the black weather seal that is used against the glass. As for the rest, I can live with. I had a victorian bay window with the window cill virtually horizontal, deeply cracked and fissured. When I first moved in (29 years ago) I had to fill and paint this bay window every year, so I bit the bullet and had plastic installed. NO more painting, though the glazing panel have reached their end of life, have replaced 4, 7 more need doing. Its not a particularily hard job (£50 + 1 Hr/ panel) and over the years its easier then the painting, and of course I get the benefit of reduced noise and reduced heat loss.
The problem with wooden frames is that there are no large manufacturers with the reduced costs associated with computer controlled manufacturing and the benefit of large scale production. My brother in law was charged £1200 for a large single double glazed sash window, I did 9 windows and a door in plastic for £3500 in my cottage. 50% of that was for the fitting. One problem is the replacement/refurbishment of the actual sash boxes, this is a very poor bit of technology, and the friction/spring counterbalanced plastic system is a better system with an infinitely extendable life without the major interior re-decoration required when replacing sash boxes.
Frank

 

[Gervase]

And I bet they look absolutely lovely! :wink:

 

[Matt Green]

I say 'alleged' because I've never lived in a house with plastic windows and have no burning ambition ever to do so, so I've no first-hand experience to judge if they're as good as many people seem to think.

The 'have your say' comments are a little dispiriting aren't they. It's a thorny issue and my experience is a little complex given that i'm a bit of a youngster, have looked at a lot of timber windows and lived in lots of houses with uPVC windows.

My parents' house was built in the late sixties/early seventies on a small housing estate. The windows had rotten to buggery by the mid eighties to the point that the frames wouldn't hold a screw for more than a month at a time. The windows stayed shut, the house was cold, and the amount of mould and condensation was pretty grim. When my parents finally got the money together (in the days when you saved for stuff, how last decade!) for plastic windows it made a massive difference to living in the house, it was warm, you could open them and they have vents we left permanently open. Both myself and sister had a lot less days off school for asthma and colds. It made the house look better too.

It wasn't a period property. The original timber frames were rubbish and of no quality whatsoever. Conversley, I've seen countless examples of decent frames from pre-war buildings removed because the paint was flaking where the timber is of fantastic quality and would outlast several sets of plastic windows. uPVC windows are one of the ramifications of the timber shortage that resulted from two world wars and the knock-on use of poor quality timber in a high-demand market.

And timber quality is where the issue lies: The timber used in post WWII joinery was terrible is a lot of case, most cases even, which led to uPVC salesmen and timber treatment salesmen making wads and wads of cash off the growing perception that timber was a liability. The over-extrapolation is that ALL timber windows are a liability, which they clearly are not.

On the one hand you guys have great buildings and great quality timber in them- and that should saved and people educated as to why. Not everyone is quite in that situation though and the view from the cheap seats might be different for valid reasons.


Matt

 

[Feltwell]

I agree Matt. On my house, several windows on the back were changed at I'd say some point in the early 80's, due to a layout change - for example, a kitchen sash went where they increased the cill height to get a kitchen worktop in. Similarly someone decided to fit french doors in place of an original window in the scullery, which actually looks very nice.

But these 25-30 year old windows and doors are now completely rotten and really are only fit to be replaced - whereas the original 110 year old windows in the rest of the house need a little attention here and there, but are generally in good shape and are certainly all perfectly repairable. The 25-30 year old ones will be replaced with wood not UPVC, and I'm hoping that by going for a better quality timber and a better standard of design and installation, new ones will last much longer.

As for price, this is not a recommendation as I have yet to see his work, but this chap is fairly close to me and was advertising made to measure box sashes, with cords and weights not spiral balances, for £550 - softwood frame but with a hardwood cill.

http://www.benchmarkmaster.co.uk/gallery.html

Or of course Biff Vernon from this site comes recommended by various people for his windows and doors made with oak, all of which is very environmentally sound and should outlast whoever buys them!

At least my neighbours (other half of my semi) have stopped talking about UPVC.

 

[Feltwell]

Some progress is good - I don't believe that any of us would not fit a modern breathable membrane if re-tiling a roof, for example.

Certainly not me, I've used loads of the stuff during repairs to our roof and as a result it's now properly waterproof, possibly for the first time in its history. Pantiles? - Pah! Another example of poor design, though thankfully now able to be worked-around using modern materials.

It's fantastic stuff. We had it as being our only roof covering for over a month, in November! If you went into the eaves of the house the daylight shone straight through it, you could feel the breeze coming through it, but no matter how hard it rained not a drop came in. Very hard stuff to tear as well.

Proctor Roofshield - recommended by our roofer as being "expensive but worth it" at £90 a roll. He used some cheaper stuff for temporary work, circa £50 a roll, it wasn't nearly as strong - much easier to tear.

 

[robgil]

i have one plastic window , the surveyor described it as 'inappropriate' however he didn't comment on all the other single glazed galvanized metal framed windows that in my opinion look just as bad but dont have the luxury of double glazing.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Talking of the plastic plague - I see Michael Jackson has died. :|

 

[Lime]

One problem is the replacement/refurbishment of the actual sash boxes, this is a very poor bit of technology, and the friction/spring counterbalanced plastic system is a better system with an infinitely extendable life without the major interior re-decoration required when replacing sash boxes.
Frank

I don't agree.
The original sash design is sophisticated and effective.
Springs are a poor substitute.

I think what most of you who are arguing that sash windows have their drawbacks forget is that you are making a judgement on sash windows that are neglected, poorly maintained and abused.

A properly maintained sash window is a pleasure to live with.

 

[ljn]

Growing up abroad, and coming across sash windows in my 30s, I saw a problem in the fact that only 50% of the window could be opened, but a great design feature in there being no space required for the opening movement.

 

[Moo]

This, in the Telegraph letters page today:

Now retired, I was a director of company that, among other activities, fitted thousands of houses with uPVC windows during the Eighties and Nineties. I agree that the eventual cracking and discoloration of the profiles are a problem.
However, it is the breakdown of handles, fittings, hinges, seals and the like that presents the biggest problem. These are often out of production and are irreplaceable soon after installation.
In my view, properly treated softwood, if maintained regularly, will last almost as long and, in addition to being environmentally sustainable, looks much better