a couple of questions about a kitchen.

[robgil]

first off is the roof , its asbestos and ms robgil cannot live under it (her exact words) so we need to change it for a none asbestos roof.
ideally i would like slate but the pitch is too shallow and i am not sure the walls (clay lump) are up for the extra weight , we would also like to do this without too much hassle from building inspectors and planning people. another option would be tin or like for like (without the asbestos bit).
what would you do with it?

next is the interior of the kitchen , its lined with hard board on battons i think and it will all be getting stripped out. i am assuming the clay lump construction will be visible and once again ms robgil cannot live with it so i am thinking maybe rendering it , is this a good idea?

this is what the walls look like in the wood shed at the end of the kitchen so i am assuming this is what they will look like when we remove the panelling in the kitchen.

and this is the kitchen,

it is rendered on the outside hopefully with a breathable render.
so , whats your opinions guys? the house isnt listed although i dont see this as a passport to take away any of its originality but the roof does have to go , even i feel a little uncomfortable living under an asbestos roof and i know its perfectly safe.


edit - to add better photos.

 

[robgil]

and also , the floor. when i went up there to take some measurements i lifted the lino off the kitchen floor to see if things would dry out and some on the screed came up with it. , anyhow , this is what was underneath. they are yellow and brick shaped. is this a lucky Norfolk pamment find or do they look too far gone to be saved? they are pretty damp and have been for some time now. they are around 1 - 2 inches thick.

 

[robgil]

sorry , double post.

 

[skier-hughes]

I've just taken several corrugated iron sheets of the side of my house, not sure there is enough for that roof though.
If I was doing it, I'd seriously look at a tile roof finish.
Inside, plaster with lime.

 

[Moo]

Not a definitive answer, but they don't look like pamments to me. More like bricks.
But they could look wonderful if you were able to lift, clean and re-lay them properly. Don't worry about them being laid straight on to earth - we have pamments in our breakfast room and stone flags in the hall, edged with bricks in the narrow passage bit, and all on earth. Absolutely no sign of damp (none of them have been sealed, apart from the brick edging which was given a goodly dose of danish oil about a decade ago)
Once we'd sorted out* the back yard, which had been concreted over with a distinct slope towards the house, everything has dried out a treat.


* got rid of the concrete, levelled it off, laid stone slabs with generous unmortared gaps between them, and put in a drainage channel next to the house for good measure.

 

[Moo]

ps

Our (modernish) kitchen extension had a rotten roof that had to be replaced. We used tiles and took the opportunity to put in a couple of veluxes while we were at it. They really do make a difference.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Your wife sounds great - the woman should always decide everything about how the house looks. I expect a tin roof could be painted? Imagine how pretty cream would be next to that pink!

And then you could try and get some sempervivums going!

http://www.gapphotos.com/images/WebPreview/0050/0050082.jpg

Lime render on the inside would be beautiful too, painted in a pretty limewash.

 

[robgil]

oooh , not so sure about a cream roof , rusty red perhaps if its tin?

i have been quite taken by norfolk pantiles (even though the house is in suffolk) , a mix of yellow , orange and red would be nice but i am quite concerned about the weight gain as the old asbestos sheets weigh pretty much next to nothing. if a building inspector got involved do you think he would get me to strengthen the walls to support a pantiled roof? also , would i need planning permission as its in a conservation area and i am changing the appearance of the house even though the roof is around the back and not visible from the road?
also , do you think i would need a water proof breathable membrane down because of the shallow pitch? i have never tiled a roof before so i am completely in the dark on this.

the floor is nice if i can remove the screed without damaging it , providing its all there in the first place. i got a photo of the loose one on its own.

 

[christianb]

My suggestion...

Earth walls are as good as any at taking weight straight down, but not so-hotso at lateral forces. Just make sure the roof is well braced.

You can, of course, lighten the load by using composite slate - the fake ones that used to contain asbestos many moons ago. Alas, because they don't contain the stuff they're not as strong as they used to be, so there tends to be more wastage. But they remain an economically practical alternative, and they're aesthetically ok.

The roof pitch is, indeed, shallow. As such, you might just about be able to get away with Duchess-size tiles (or bigger if available). Couple them with a really high quality breather felt and you should remain dry!

C.

 

[Flyfisher]

Yes, I was going to suggest using a breathable felt whatever tiles you use, but especially with pantiles, because of the shallow slope.

Although, thinking about it a bit more, pantiles might not be practical because they are quite thick and your roof slope is quite shallow, so by the time the pantiles are lifted to overlap the lower one they might not have much slope at all. That may not be a big problem if the underlying roof construction is waterproof but it might look rather odd. Slate, or slate-like tiles might therefore be a better option due to their thinness.

 

[robgil]

looking at it you may be right flyfisher , perhaps i need to buy half a dozen of each and offer them up to see if they look ok and that would give me a better idea of what to use. whatever i use i will need a water proof sheet underneath anyway.

copper could be nice although it could also look very naff and out of place as could lead and zink, thatch will rot at that pitch unless perhaps if it was tied into the existing thatched roof but that would be changing the original fabric of the house so that's out of the question.

corrugated tin or concrete would be the cheapest , easiest solution and between the two i would say tin would be my bet.

so , its just tiles left , slate or clay. slate would be nice but it would be one of a very few if not the only slated roof in the area , all the rest are pantiles and i would need to be considerate to the roof materials used on the surrounding houses so i guess flat , thin clay tiles may be best for this situation.

what kind of pitch would you say that is , 25 degrees?

edit - christianb ive looked at bracing briefly and it seems i would have a flat roof inside if i braced it thus losing all head room , or am i barking up the wrong tree?

 

[Flyfisher]

Corrugated tin shouldn't give you any structural issues; I'd guess it would be lighter than the existing roofing sheets.

I'm not entirely sure about the need for bracing, even if you added tiles. Because the roof is quite shallow pitched, I don't think there will be much of a 'pushing' force on the outer wall. Also, the 'lean-to' contruction is another reason why I don't think there will be much of a 'pushing' force on the outer walls. A collapsing A-frame will clearly tend to push the supporting walls outwards, but I can't really envisage a collapsing lean-to pushing in a similar way.

If anything, an overloaded lean-to rafter will bend and, in doing so, its linear span will become shorter rather than pushing against the supporting wall. So I don't think I'd worry about bracing, I'd be more concerned about the basic strength of the roof construction if you do decide to add tiles.

I must stress that this is just amateur conjecture; you'd need a structural engineer for a qualified opinion. Knowing the rafter size, span and spacings should enable a professional to confirm the load capability of the roof.

 

[christianb]

Flyfisher's probably right. And the exterior wall is fairly squat so the chances of lateral force actually getting a chance to play a part is slim.

Personally, I'd slate it (or pantile it) after whacking in a couple more C24 grade rafters (if needed) - 400 centres are a rule of thumb for moderate loads.

C.

 

[robgil]

the rafters look quite small and few and far between. it would be nice to have exposed oak beams rather than rafters but once again its all extra weight. i am still not sure how the rafters are secured at the house side.

this is the roof over the wood store , a bare room at the end of the kitchen.

i think this photo is of the house side,

 

[Ushy M]

Robgil, have posted a pic here as we have a shallow-pitched kitchen extension on a thatched cottage too. Mr M recently had to re-lay the modern Duchess-type tiles as part of some repairs and says there's no evidence of water penetration at this shallow pitch, but reckons a breathable membrane is necessary as a precaution in any case. Slates are much lighter than concrete tiles - though you may be surprised how heavy those concrete/asbestos corrugated roof sheets are, having helped a friend re-roof with them. Unless you cut or drill them (thus creating dust) they're relatively safe to move about, but may be difficult to dispose of, for obvious reasons. Pantiles would look nice but probably don't offer the same of weatherproofing as a close-fitting tile of other sorts.

Looking at your pix, I see that the inner end of your rafters appear to sit on a timber screwed to the back wall of the house - an arrangement Mr M found by accident having woken up in a cold sweat realising what he'd seen. :shock: Fixing it required building piers to support the timber - fortunately these coincided with some internal brick walls so not as bad as it sounds!

 

[robgil]

that looks really good , a much better roof than asbestos sheets. i think you are right about the wall plate on the house side and i probably would add some extra support to it , probably by way of vertical support beams.
from a conservation point of view is this a change that will lift a few eye brows? or is it justified because of the asbestos being a tad dangerous?

also , i take it i will need planning permission to change the roofing materials and perhaps the roof structure to strengthen it? also , do i need to get a building inspector involved to come and make sure it is all being done properly? the house isnt listed so i dont want a B.I to come to see the new roof then make me insulate the building , add double glazing etc etc , can they do that?

and , what would they have had on there before the asbestos was put on there? clay tiles perhaps? if i could find some indication as to what was on there before then that would really help me make up my mind as to what to use.

 

[Flyfisher]

I doubt that replacing an asbestos sheet roof is justification in itself because such sheeting is not really considered dangerous. As previously mentioned, it's only dangerous when drilled or otherwise broken whereby it can release asbestos fibres. Even then there are safe methods, which are documented on the HSE asbestos web pages. Disposal of asbestos sheeting is fairly straightforward and most council tips will accept it, usually with the proviso of it being double-wrapped and suitably labelled. Check with your local council - they probably have some web pages about it.

I'm not sure about conservation area rules but if you do require planning permission for a change of roof then I doubt you'll be able to avoid building control. I don't think they can force you to do anything until you actually change something but if you do make changes then they'll have to comply with the latest building regs because you have nothing to overide the BC requirements as you're not listed. I believe Skier-Hughes had the same issues with replacing windows on his C17 but unlisted house and was required to install DG to the latest building regs, but I can't remember the full story.

As to what was on the roof before the asbestos sheets, as you sure there was a 'before'? Do you know for sure how old the lean-to is?

 

[robgil]

the asbestos sheeting is cracked and broken in places and to be fair mesothelioma (sp?) is not something i would like to go through on an off chance. i agree it is quite safe and each sheet is only 5 percent in weight (or is it volume?) asbestos fibres but i would rather not take the chance to be honest. from a conservation point of view could i not 'repair' the asbestos by way of replacing it with corrugated cement sheeting that does not contain asbestos? if this were the case then i wouldn't have to get an inspector involved would i ? i have no problem with meeting current building regs but i do fear that they will make me do alterations to the house that might interfere with the original fabric of the houses construction ,altering the mud bricked walls to take the extra weight for instance.
i am not sure if the roof is original or not as there were so many alterations and restorations dont to the house in the 60's/70's that it is hard to know. the only thing i have to go by is the clay lump construction which was widely used in suffolk from 1800's , the earliest being 1791 but more likely 1830 or so onwards. i have no idea when they stopped using it but i doubt (i am no expert) they would have used clay lump building techniques 1960's/70's when the roof was put on.

 

[Flyfisher]

I wasn't trying to persuade you to live with the sheeting, by any means, just pointing out that asbestos sheet materials are not inherently dangerous and are no reason to panic. If you have cracked/broken edges then it might be worth considering painting them, which should prevent the release of any asbestos fibres, temporarily at least.

If you decide to replace the sheets with a modern non-asbestos equivalent then I don't see any need to get the planning or building control people involved. I don't know the strict legalities but it's something that I would certainly be prepared to do without seeking permission. It would be as 'like-for-like' as you could reasonably (and legally) do, given that asbestos is now a banned product.

 

[hulver02]

Regarding your floor, these look to be Suffolk White Bricks. A fantastic find. These can cost £2 per brick! We have lots in our own home, they don't need to be perfect, we cleaned and relaid them and were in the same condition as yours. Lucky you! These bricks are common in north essex, suffolk and south norfolk. You can still find them in salvage yards around suffolk but obviously for a premium.