2 Inglenook questions.

[Starsman]

I own a pub in Plymouth which, in parts, dates back to the 13thC. It is Grade II listed. Recently I removed a1950-ish brick surround, hearth and gas fire and exposed a very nice inglenook complete with bread oven. My questions are:
1). I have read on here about Listed Building Consent for various internal works. As I say my pub is very old with many interesting features including a well, lumpy stone floors, lots of stone, a wooden spiral staircase, and a wobbly looking roofline. I looked up the Grade II listing a while ago and was a little surprised that it only included the roofline (with the possibility of original timbers and construction techniques), and the newel post for the spiral staircase, which allegedly was a sailing spar from a local 18thC trading vessel. So, when a building is listed, is it the whole building, or just specific elements of it that are covered? What I'm really asking is should I have got Listed Building Consent to expose the inglenook?

2). I have exposed and restored inglenooks before, and always found that the bread oven is a pretty rough and ready affair. Usually it is just a void in the stonework which has then been lined with fire clay or something similar. The one exposed now appears to have been moulded or fabricated in some way, and then built into the side, and is larger than any I've seen before. Unfortunately parts of it had to be dismantled during the exposure and will have to be repaired. Does anyone know of the right materials for doing this. Also the original rough fireclay, or terracotta, door was found, but not before the handle had been inadvertently broken. Again, any ideas on good repair materials for this. I have pics if anyone requires them.

Thanks, Rick

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Rick - Welcome.

Experts, including some Conservation Officers will no doubt be along shortly.

However, myunderstanding is that whilst the listing entry for a building may mention some particular aspects that are considered notable, the WHOLE building and its curtilage is listed and is listed in the condition it was, at the point of listing.

The effect of this is two-fold:

a) pretty much all work on the building will required listed building consent before any works are undertaken; and there are considerable powers and penalties that can be taken by the local authority against transgressors. This may seem draconian but is in place to protect the building.

b) the listing makes no judgement on the relative merits of earlier features which may have been covered up by later additions. These may well tell the "story" of the building, and there are examples I understand of Conservation Officers isisting on retaining double glazing or modern alterations. Most however are likely to be sympathetic to proposals that maintain or enhance the historic integrity of the building.

The upshot of this for you and your pub is that you must consult your local Conservation Officer before doing anything else. They will ensure that what you do is permissble and in the best interests of the building. They will also be able to advise on methods and materials for sympathetic repair, eg of your bread oven.

 

[Flyfisher]

Hello Rick. I'm not an expert but our house is listed. The listing description does not describe the house in minute detail though, like yours, it does describe some specific features as well as an overall description of the construction type and probable age of the house.

I have always understood that the listing description provides and overall description of a property and is not a 'specification' document that defines only the protected features. The entire property and its curtilage is protected.

If this was not the case, and since it is practically impossible to fully describe every minute detail of a property, then any listed property could have its character and historical value almost completely destroyed by the removal and replacement of any feature not specifically mentioned in the listing description.

Listing does not mean that alterations cannot be made but they do require Listed Building Consent and the local Conservation Officer will be able to advise what is and what is not acceptable in order to retain the essential historical value of the property.

Our CO has been extremely helpful regarding the few alterations and extensive repairs to our property and obtaining LBC has not been a problem. I think it is generally recognised that listed properties will only be effectively preserved if they can be altered and made fit for modern living. The trick is to ensure that any such alterations are sympathetic to the property, so as not to destroy its essential character. Owners cannot be expected to always be experts in such matters (though many are) so it is the role of the CO to advise and approve of any alterations.

From your description of opening up your fireplace I would be very surprised if your CO would object (though every building is a unique case), but it should have been carried out with LBC. I have obtained LBC for similar work to open up inglenook fireplaces with no problems.

I entirely agree with FW above that you should contact your CO and discuss your plans for the property.

Hopefully, there will be a CO along shortly to provide some definitive answers and advice.

 

[Starsman]

thanks for your replies. I've contacted the local council but can't talk to the CO until Monday. Hopefully all will be well, but is retrospective permission possible, the same as it is for planning permission?

 

[Flyfisher]

I believe retrospective LBC is possible, though it will all depend on the nature of the work done of course. If the CO considers the work to have been detrimental then I'd guess it's more likely that they would issue some sort of order for the work to be 'undone', as far as that would be possible.

Just remember that, although a CO has to tread the sensitive line between the owner's wishes and preserving the essential character of the property, ultimately, their first duty is to the property. However, from what you've described, I'd be surprised if you have any problems. After all, inglenook fireplaces are hardly incompatible with old public houses and the removal of a 1950's fireplace and an old gas fire doesn't seem like a significant loss of historical material.

if you have the best interests of the building at heart then you shouldn't have any problems with your CO. Indeed, you'll hopefully find them to be an invaluable source of expert advice and encouragement.

Do let us know how things progress. Oh, and since you mentioned the possibility of photographs, it would be remiss of me to mention that we always love to see photos of historic properties and their features!

 

[skier-hughes]

You might also need to look into who/how a gas fire should be removed.

 

[Penners]

Welcome to the forum, Rick.

I'm really only posting to agree with what's been said above. When a building is listed, the whole building and its entire curtilage is listed, regardless of which particular features may or may not actually be mentioned in the listing. So any alteration work requires Listed Building Consent. Only like-for-like repair work can be carried out without LBC.

A system for retrospective LBC does exist. Your best plan is to discuss this with your Conservation Officer (which I gather you've already decided to do).

As to your bread oven question - can you possibly post a few photos of it? That would help other forum members to have a clearer idea of what you've found.

 

[Moo]

Yes please - LOTS of photos!

 

[Starsman]

How do I post photoes here?

 

[robgil]

Photo bucket is a good way to do it.
or go to ''upload attachment'' just below and left of the submit button when you post a new message.

 

[Starsman]

Best I've got so far. Will get some closer ones showing the oven better and the door/cover, with their inscriptions.

Ahhhh...wrote this before I tried to attach...too big, I'll have to work on them

 

[AMc]

IF you're using Windows XP...

I'd been wasting time resizing my photos to fit on my digital picture frame one by one.
This Microsoft XP power toy adds a right click mouse menu option for images that allows you to copy and resize images at standard resolutions (640x480, 800x600 etc.) in one go and leave the original image unchanged.
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/digitalphotography/learnmore/tips/eschelman2.mspx

It applies quite high compression so they should be small enough to attach here.

 

[CliffordPope]

We were forced to restore a derelict 1970s asbestos-tiled roof on a Victorian railway station. Six months later they gave consent for it all to be pulled off again and replaced with reclaimed Welsh slates.

 

[Feltwell]

You could always install this beautiful fireplace - so authentic, click on enlarge for a better appreciation of this wonderful artefact :wink: :-

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CAST-IRON-FIR..._Antiques_Architecural_RL&hash=item256115986c

The listing even says "THIS FIRE WOULD BE VERY IMPRESSIVE IN AND (sic) OLD TRADITIONAL STYLE HOUSE OR PUB" so it must be right.......

The 70's - truly the decade that taste forgot

 

[Penners]

THIS FIRE WOULD BE VERY IMPRESSIVE IN AND (sic) OLD TRADITIONAL STYLE HOUSE OR PUB

...or, apparently, in a traditional-style urban garden.
:roll:

 

[Starsman]

Haha...I think not.

Still can't get pics to post here, so I've put them on facebook

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=25709&id=100001665181056&l=2ae89d61bc

 

[Penners]

Starsman, I think you may have been unlucky with the timing of your picture attempt. The forum seems to be beset by gremlins at the moment.

 

[robgil]

Face3 book is giving errors as well.
Photobucket is a great option , really.

 

[Moo]

Face3 book is giving errors as well.

Not for me - it's working perfectly. Stop moaning, robgil.

 

[skier-hughes]

great find, what a shame about the handle.
Can you find a local potter who may be able to do a repair?