10 months of DAMP problems. See Photos. Please help!

[Lime]

The fact that the wall has been treated before complicates the issue but it does suggest long term problems.
Also the recent leak has compounded the problem too.
As you can see for yourself, injecting a DPC does not sort out damp problems particularly when the source of the damp is not known or erradicated. It does make it less easy to predict how or when the wall will dry out however.
If the solid floor is still damp or the subsoil is saturated for whatever reason it is likely that the wall will not dry out if the moisture in the wall is coming from that area.

I think you need to ensure that the water/damp is not coming in from above via the chimney.
You need to be sure that the bathroom is free from leaks. It only takes a tiny leak to cause a solid floor to be saturated if it has no means of drying out.
You need to allow time for the floor and wall to dry out.

For me the main concern is the kitchen floor and what the dampness can do/is doing to the wood.
You can improve the situation by increasing the underfloor ventilation on the kitchen side by adding to and/or increasing the size of the vents. Removing cobwebs, rubble and dust will improve air circulation too.
It needs to be dry/drying down there.

If the solid bathroom floor is causing the wall to be damp in some way the solution is not obvious. The composition, depth, dampproofing (if any) and foundation of the floor is unknown. The condition of the subsoil is unknown. The area of contact between the floor and wall under the solid floor is unknown.
Basically any method that removes direct contact between the walls and the solid floor will do the job but that is not easy to obtain for obvious reasons.

 

[Dampadoodle]

Again, thanks for the advice - it looks like it's still a question of 'wait and see' which seems to point again to leaving the bricks exposed and covered with a breathable paint (perhaps like Claypaint from Earthborn paints? http://www.earthbornpaints.co.uk ) to ensure that the situation can be monitored.

However, a surveyor is coming tomorrow night who has already suggested over the phone that he will probably favour the idea of sealing away damp into brickwork with the use of sand/cement rather than allowing walls to breathe into the room. All advice from this forum suggests that this would be a bad plan – but we’re still concerned about the effect that allowing the moisture to come through behind the units will have – e.g. a smell and/or deterioration of the units and oak worktop. So does the surveyor have a point? Anyone want to back him up?

If we’re not going to be able to solve the issue of water coming through from the solid floor side (we simply cannot afford to replace the floor or have extensive renovations) then it is very tempting to try to lock the moisture away using sand/cement – out of sight (and smell) out of mind (even though this is clearly not ‘sympathetic’).

 

[thiambal]

From the Earth Born Paints website

Silicate masonry products

A modern, durable alternative to limewash, earthBorn Silicate Masonry Paint and Primer offer long lasting performance with outstanding environmental benefits.

The products bond with the underlying masonry material to form a durable barrier to water but enable the masonry to breathe.

They are water-borne and contain minimal VOCs.

Choose…

Silicate Primer – stabilises loose, powdery surfaces prior to painting and helps prevent mould. Ideal for absorbent mineral-based surfaces such as stone, concrete, pebbledash and plaster.

Silicate Masonry Paint – white, weather-resistant and water repellent, this outdoor masonry paint provides a soft matt finish that does not yellow with time. Compatible with earthBorn Pigments to create warm colours.

Hmmm, bonds with the painted surface, water resistance yet breathable

Does it really?

 

[NT]

However, a surveyor is coming tomorrow night who has already suggested over the phone that he will probably favour the idea of sealing away damp into brickwork with the use of sand/cement rather than allowing walls to breathe into the room. All advice from this forum suggests that this would be a bad plan – but we’re still concerned about the effect that allowing the moisture to come through behind the units will have – e.g. a smell and/or deterioration of the units and oak worktop. So does the surveyor have a point? Anyone want to back him up?

no and no

If we’re not going to be able to solve the issue of water coming through from the solid floor side (we simply cannot afford to replace the floor or have extensive renovations) then it is very tempting to try to lock the moisture away using sand/cement – out of sight (and smell) out of mind (even though this is clearly not ‘sympathetic’).

learn how it all works and you'll see why this isnt the approach to take.


NT

 

[Geoffrey]

Don't think you'll have anybody here agreeing with the surveyor.
I have used the claypaints and found them very good and breathable. The silicate ones mentioned above are probably different - don't know about them...
If you cure the cause of the damp the smell will eventually go away - unfortunately as others have pointed this takes time.

 

[Dampadoodle]

I thought you’d all say that!

NT – you’re absolutely right, and that is why I’m here – to learn as much as possible about causes, effects and (hopeful) solutions.

Geoffrey – I agree about the paints, it is the Claypaint we may well use. I found them by googling ‘breathable paint’ and called up the company who were v helpful and explained quite a bit about them.

 

[biffvernon]

Silicate masonry products
Hmmm, bonds with the painted surface, water resistance yet breathable
Does it really?

Silicate paints work in a very different way to other paints. They are potash-silicate solutions, sometimes known as waterglass, that reacts chemically with silica in the masonry forming a very permanent bond. They don't form a surface film like oil bound paints or limewash but they do maintain the vapour-permeability of the masonry whilst imparting a non-wettable finnish. A useful product in the right situation but get some expert advice to be sure that yours is the right situation.

 

[Dampadoodle]

Well, I thought it would be best to give an update to the situation.

October 2006: We did what many of you suggested and simply didn't replaster behind the units. I was going to use traditional limewash to cover the brickwork but instead I used claypaint from Earthborn. The good news is that so far there has been no smell and no sign of damp apart from where we didn't remove bonding - there's still a little touch coming through there but nowhere near as bad.

So, thank you to everyone who gave us pointers as to what to do. Invaluable stuff and much appreciated.

 

[chuckey]

I am concerned about the bathroom. That 1/4 pint of water you mentioned that was being leaked, how many years has this being going on for? Another thing all copper pipes should be sleeved where they go through cement. Also in 1976 a lot of faulty copper pipe were sold in this country. I would put an electric fan on this wall to dry it out, then after a week turn it off, see if the dampness returns. Its looks too bad to be traditionel rising damp, that why I am suspecting your plumbing.
On the subject of injected silicon damp coures, the one I had done in 1980 on my Victorian house, a, worked,b, is still working! When we moved in some of the hall wallpaper was so damp it hung in strips, only adhering at a level of about 7' up the wall. Our PVC coated wallpaper has lasted for about 15 years. yeh its getting tired but I got a cottage to fix.
Frank

 

[Matt Green]

On the subject of injected silicon damp coures, the one I had done in 1980 on my Victorian house, a, worked,b, is still working!

alternatively:
c: the masonry was never damp in the first place
d: it is still damp and the PVC wallpaper and cement plaster are holding back evaporation.

You don't know the silicon worked, all you can say is that the renovation works that occurred along with the injection did something to halt the spoiling of your decorations.

Given that you can't now remove the silicon, the damage to the bricks can't easily be rectified and the cement will damage the internal face of the masonry, it's hardly something to shout about.


Matt

 

[Flyfisher]

Its looks too bad to be traditionel rising damp, that why I am suspecting your plumbing.

We had a 1950's house and one day the ceiling below the hot water cylinder started to 'bow' alarmingly. With some trepidation I got a bucket and made a hole in the centre of the bowing plasterboard and collected about half a bucket of water. No sign of gushing water though.

Clearly a plumbing problem, but it took a while to find the problem. It turned out to be a tiny hole where two copper pipes were touching each other. There was no joint involved. Seems that the constant, slight movement of the pipes had finally worn through one of them resulting in a slight leak . . . .

 

[alice]

I've had an amazing amount of water collect from condensation. Pipes that are hotter or colder than the surrounding area, and for some reason are in a very humid area, can collect enough condensation to create a situation that looks very much like a leak.

alice

 

[chuckey]

Sorry to be a pain, but when my slate DPC was bolsterd up with silicon injection, the only remedial work was to replace the skirting boards and in one room, just fill the holes in the skirting boards. I am sure that if the DPC was letting any appreciable amount of dampness through, my PVC faced paper would stop it evaporating and the paste at the bottom of the walls would have shown distress. And there still is no musty smell.
I am not saying that silicon is right for every circumstance, but it is wrong to totally dismiss it as well.
Frank

 

[Nemesis]

If you had a slate DPC, then there shouldn't have had to be another surely?

Slate doesn't usually fail..

 

[Matt Green]

I am not saying that silicon is right for every circumstance, but it is wrong to totally dismiss it as well.

There's no evidence that a chemical DPC did anything appreciable in this case given that was installed 'blind' into the bricks and/or mortar courses through the plaster and skirting boards. The odds of it forming an unbroken barrier are slim to none and you already had what was probably a working DPC there anyway. It's also bridged by the internal plaster.

Chemical DPCs are almost always avoidable. There was probably a better way of dealing with the problem that did not involve irreversible damage to your building. You may never have had a problem with rising damp in the first place.

Sorry to take a hard line but far too much damage has been caused by the irresponsible application of these things to give any ground.


Matt

 

[Lime]

The problem with silicon liquid injection is that it follows the line of least resistance.
Cracks and holes take a large quantity away.
Any dry high absoption area of mortar or brick will take what is left of the liquid.
Any water encountered in the brick will repel the silicone just as powerfully as does silicone to water.
If water is already in the brick the silicone will not penetrate that brick.
Brick does not have a greater affinity for either silicone or water.
Once one liquid is within brick it will repel the other.

Slate does nor degrade when used as a dpc.
Silicone injection often drills through the slate damaging it forever.
If a wall is damp water is not coming up through the brick except in exceptional circumstances.
The damp will be coming from condensation, from the other horizontal side of the brick, from above the brick or from a water leak either inside or out.

What needs to be done is the source of water to be investigated and removed and the brick allowed to dry out.
Anything else is just a short term measure at best, no use whatever or exacerbates the problem often causing irreparable damage.

 

[chuckey]

Lime wrote:-

Any dry high absoption area of mortar or brick will take what is left of the liquid.
Any water encountered in the brick will repel the silicone just as powerfully as does silicone to water.
If water is already in the brick the silicone will not penetrate that brick.

I witnessed a great deal of the injection process, the silicon was pumped in at about 200 p.s.i. and after about 10 seconds per brick, oozed out of the bricks surface. If there was any mobile liquid it too, would have been forced out.

Once one liquid is within brick it will repel the other.

Not if one of the liquids is being pumped in under pressure, is the water going to cling to the brick by its finger tips?

If a wall is damp water is not coming up through the brick except in exceptional circumstances.
The damp will be coming from condensation, from the other horizontal side of the brick, from above the brick or from a water leak either inside or out.

One of the walls that was fixed was a single brick internal wall, hence the funny drilling through the skirting boards, this was on the return walls to the actual damp one.

What needs to be done is the source of water to be investigated and removed and the brick allowed to dry out.
Anything else is just a short term measure at best, no use whatever or exacerbates the problem often causing irreparable damage.

Like I said , internal wall, wet wallpaper, silicon injected, skirting board replaced, plaster made good and new wallpaper, problem gone so far for 26 years.

Perhaps I was just lucky.
frank

 

[Nemesis]

Yeah. Pity heaps of others have wasted their cash on this. Plus all the houses which have had walls spoiled and cement render stuck on them as part of the process. Not a way I'd treat a historic building but there you go.

Maybe there was another way of course - like finding the cause of the damp and removing it?

 

[Lime]

I've seen plenty of injections taking place over the years and not one old brick is the same as another.
Generally if a wall is dry then the silicone fluid penetrates to considerable depths, but then you have to question the need for the injection in the first place.
If the wall is damp/wet, pressurised injection makes little difference even until the pressure splits the bricks.
it is fantasy to imagine all the water being completely "pushed out" of a brick. It isn't. Most of any water held within a brick will remain.
Once again the silicone will take the line of least resistance, often out of the front of the brick or through the frog.
I have tested many silicone injected damp walls using a electromagnetic head (not the two pronged type ) long after the silicone has evaporated and most remain damp if the cause of the damp has not been removed.
Most success claimed by silicone injection can be attributed to the other remedial work carried out at the same time together with central heating and better ventilation.
I wish it did work.
I'd use it.

 

[Dampadoodle]

Hi,

So I thought it would be a good idea to give everyone an update.

It is now over 2 years since we did the original work to the damp. NO injection and NO treatment from cowboy 'damp professionals'. We stripped the bonding from the wall and allowed it to breathe. Then, before putting the units back, we covered over the brick with the breathable claypaint that I mentioned before - no more plaster, no bonding.

It took a while (3 months perhaps) for the damp smell to completely disappear from the cupboard but it did eventually go. We haven't had a problem with it since.

I now firmly believe that it was all caused by shoddy sealant around the bath. This meant that whenever anyone had a shower, perhaps 50-100 ml of water would go behind the bath and onto the wall between the bathroom and the kitchen. Amazing to think that such a small amount of water can cause this but I suppose there was nowhere for it to go and the wall just soaked it up, going mouldy and smelly in the process.

I hope these posts help someone else out who's having problems. I am now a firm believer that you can't simply 'seal' damp away - you have to let it escape and create extra ventilation while you find the source.

Thanks to all those who helped.