would you replace these joists

[TomW]

Having taken up my hall floor to sort out some rot and damp, I find that most of the joists are in pretty poor condition. I may be able to reuse some of them but my logical head says rip the lot up and replace.
Although the house is an 1880 terrace, the joists themselves have obviously been reused from a much older building, they are all odd shapes and bear signs of old lathe and plaster work and rebates for joints.
I think the point I'm trying to make is, when does historical context become a rotten old piece of wood that needs chucking, and how far would you go to keep that historical context.
The house is not listed by the way.

 

[biffvernon]

they are all odd shapes and bear signs of old lathe ... work

Nah, they'd be more rounded.

(Sorry, that's just an old joke that has run periodically for several years. Heed it not.)

I think, if t'were my floor, I'd keep all the old joists as they are part of the historic fabric and they tell a story. However, there don't seem to be very many joists. I might be tempted to add some new joists into the rather wide gaps. Or have I read the pictures wrongly?

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Looking at those pics, I'd agree with Biff. There doesn't seem to be much to support you as you come off that bottom step onto the floorboard.

Are you replacing the floorboards? Given the nails are still in the joists, I suspect you may have knackered the boards lifting them?

Also I'd replace that bathroom! :shock: :lol:

 

[Lime]

Ditto to the comments made so far.

There does not appear to be much wrong with the joists that I can see.
All look big and strong and the modern replacement would pale into insignificance in comparison to them.

 

[Pford75]

I just uncovered a split joist in our Morning Room today (whilst routing some network cable). I decided to do as others have recommended above.....I kept the original in place and added a new joist either side.

Not only is it now strong, the original fabric is obvious to anyone looking at the work after gone.

 

[TomW]

Thanks good people for your comments thus far. I think I can see consensus emerging.
Biff; I'm not quite sure what you mean about the wide gaps. The joists themselves are only about 15" apart and the support plates about 3ft 4inches apart. Is this not enough? The pic below may give you a better perspective, with the joists in their proper position.
FamilyWiggs; I have salvaged some boards, but to be honest they are not in very good condition and I have decided to replace them. They were also surprisingly thin, only about 15mm in a couple of cases. Most had been cut about by generations of sparkys and plumbers.
I think I will remove everything tomorrow and salvage what I can.

 

[biffvernon]

Biff; I'm not quite sure what you mean about the wide gaps. The joists themselves are only about 15" apart and the support plates about 3ft 4inches apart. Is this not enough? The pic below may give you a better perspective, with the joists in their proper position.

Ah yes, I see what you mean now - I thought the plates were the joists! It's clear in that latest pic.

But I'd still leave all the old timber and just add a bit more if there were any particularly weak and bouncy sections.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Biff; I'm not quite sure what you mean about the wide gaps. The joists themselves are only about 15" apart and the support plates about 3ft 4inches apart. Is this not enough? The pic below may give you a better perspective, with the joists in their proper position.

Ah yes, I see what you mean now - I thought the plates were the joists! It's clear in that latest pic.

Ditto - much clearer now. I thought the original pic showed the joists very widely spaced!

 

[Flyfisher]

There does not appear to be much wrong with the joists that I can see.
All look big and strong and the modern replacement would pale into insignificance in comparison to them.

That was my first thought as well. It's difficult to tell from a photo, of course, but I've seen timbers looking far worse yet were rock solid inside the outer 1/4-1/2 inch or so. Have you tried pushing a nail into them?

 

[TomW]

Wot, like this you mean. :wink:
To be fair that is the worst of them and the reason I embarked on this little project.
I do have a couple more of these joists from elsewhere in the house and if you get past the dodgy exteriors the centre is hard as iron. Every nail, tack etc. that's been hammered into them, is still there.

 

[Flyfisher]

I do have a couple more of these joists from elsewhere in the house and if you get past the dodgy exteriors the centre is hard as iron.

That's the key point. The trick is to judge if there's enough structural strength left in the beam or if it needs supplementing with some new ones.

Perhaps the rule should be that if the wood is solid enough that it would need to be cut out with a saw then it should be left in place as part of the historic fabric of the building, with judicious supplementing of the structure with new beams as required, but if it's crumbly enough to be removed with bare fingers then it really is end-of-life.

 

[Penners]

Looking at those pics, I'd agree with Biff.

Me too. Not only would that approach preserve the older fabric, but it would actually make the job easier for you.

 

[TomW]

I don't know if it makes it easier, I've had all the joists and support plates up this morning and the joists seem pretty solid, but the underside of the plates is damp, soft and spongy and full of worm holes :shock:

Luckily, the spare joists I've kept are solid enough to use as replacements, but I've now got to rebuild the support walls for the plates, as these are in poor condition as well.

Ho-hum, off to make plum jam for a while

 

[chuckey]

I would leave the old joists in place and add some more "sleeper" walls. 12" square paving stone bit of PVC/roofing felt and a dollop of mortar. This will strengthen them without the hassle of getting the tops of new joist aligned.
Frank

 

[Matt Green]

It's wood-boring weevil damage. They've done a lovely job too- brings a tear to the eye.

The joists need to be isolated from the sleepers with slate or a DPM. Any new timber laid at that level should be isolated from any masonry in ground contact. The insects will keep going and the joists will keep compressing until the substructure is stabilised. I would lift them, brush them down with a wire brush isolate, relay and level. Otherwise the insects will carry on, albeit a very slow pace, destroying them.

M

 

[TomW]

Thanks Matt, you have basically described exactly what I am doing
The existing joists are plenty strong enough, but the sleeper walls and support plates have suffered due to poor ventilation and an accumulation of dust and debris which held the damp against them.

To my mind the only way to deal effectively with this, is to clear everything out, improve ventilation, rebuild the sleeper walls with DPM and replace rotten timber where necessary. Any other solution (and I thank everyone who has suggested one) is surely postponing the inevitable. All Joists will be put back where they came from and will hopefully survive another 130 years.
The picture is the underside of the worst of the support plates. Surely this is not salvageable.

 

[Penners]

off to make plum jam for a while

That, Tom, is what is known as "displacement activity".

Discipline yourself to get on with the rotten* old floor job! :wink:




* I use the word advisedly.

 

[TomW]

I got a large cheap bag of plums in the market, which needed using immediately so it was either "jam today or compost tomorrow" :roll:
I also like to take stock of things when it comes to working on the house, ponder, and roll a few ideas around my head. New sleeper walls and support plates going in tomorrow.

 

[Flyfisher]

That tends to be my approach as well - plenty of prior pondering, gathering of advice as required and working everything out in my head before actually starting.

Though it doesn't make me immune to displacement activities.