woodworm

[shilly]

We have some oak floorboards, new, but not top quality. Delivered in Dec, didnt start laying this batch till last week. They were stored in a room with pine floorboards. Discovered new woodworm holesin some of them, in the sapwood, plenty of fresh wood dust stuff. Found about 16 dead on the floor. Have treated the boards.
Should we treat the room they were stored in? Are there likely to be any alive in oak boards? Read somewhere that can stay alive for up to four years before emerging?
House is in process of being renovated and has no carpets in it and a lot of exposed wood, most of it old elm, pine with old dead woodworm holes.
Dont' really want to discovered more worm holes next year in them, or might we?
Had allready laid an oak floor and the wood showed no signs of worm, yet wood is from the same company, have not treated it as yet.
I have read through the woodworm messages, but still feel need advice.
thankyou
Shilly

 

[biffvernon]

The worm will probably stick to the sapwood - the heartwood tastes too much of tannin for the discerning worm. 'Treating' the wood probably doesn't do much good as the chemicals don't soak in far in oak. Hopefully there is not much sapwood. The worms don't like dry conditions so will not fare well if your house has a normally low humidity. The worms that were old enough to come out this year will have flown by now. The season starts in May.

 

[shilly]

Hi, thanks for that. There is about 15% sapwood, at a guess.
Are there likely to be any more worms hiding in the sapwood?
Do you think they may of gained entry into the floor the floorboards were being stored on?
I did check the blighters out and they were powder post when I compared them with pictures I found.
Shilly

 

[biffvernon]

I find that oak sapwood very often contains worms - they probably arrived while the timber was stored at the sawmill. They never seem to venture into the heartwood. Yes, there may still be some in there so the best way to limit the damage is to keep the place dry. Don't panic. Woodworm is not nearly as damaging as many people imagine. I'd be much more afraid of the chemicals some folk slosh about.

 

[Gervase]

if you're worried about the cocktail of chemicals usually used to treat timber (and you should be worried!), think about using borax. It's nice for the wood and for you (if not the woodworm!)

 

[shilly]

Yes, i believe they came in with the wood. Lucky we had a really hot summer I think this helped the worms die? Not so worried about the chemicals, you're right they are horrible, vacated the house for a week when it was done. Dint know about borax, will remember for another time!
Just dont want worms emerging next yearcrawling out of our nicely laid floors and getting into everything else as well.
That's good they dont go into the hardwood.
Will the worms in the oak like pine as well, or do different worms go for different woods?

 

[Anys]

Rightly or wrongly, we are having the oak beams sprayed in our early 19th century barn conversion, and with it comes a certificate of guarantee which will be useful to us to hand on to a future buyer, as I can't see us living here for ever, much as we'd like to.

 

[biffvernon]

Before you let the contractor loose in your house make sure that you understand that:

The insecticide will not penetrate the oak far enough to kill any insect larvae.
Keeping the timber dry is a good prevention against infestation.
There probably aren't any bugs in there anyway.
The chemical (unless it is boron) will be a health risk to yourself.

If you don't believe all this get advice from a specialist surveyor who is not connected to a company that does the treatment.

 

[Anys]

Yes I know all this and the building is dry, with a new roof, and will be very well-aired, but the bottom line is will whoever comes after us know it as well, looking at the plethora of wormholes ... hence a guarantee certificate. It's a matter of giving peace of mind really. These beams have never been stained or painted and we don't plan to stain or paint them, just seal them.

 

[middi]

Shilly, Biff's comments are exellent.

The truth appears to be that woodworm will attack the sapwood quite easily in time on oak beams, they will eventually stop munching away when they hit the much harder heartwood,

The more persistant and more penetrating death watch beetle can in time cause structural damage to the building, as from experience I have found them alive and munching away in the heartwood where it had been allowed to get wet and damp over a long time. This was eighteen months after a certificate from a woodworm eradication company was issued.

 

[Lime]

Without picking a quarrel with anyone I'm at a loss to understand why people purchase old property and expect it to be in perfect condition.
There is so much ignorance about woodworm and wood problems particularly with oak.
While I am aware of the "housing game" of making more and more money on a property it seems a shame that old houses today are ever exposed to modern treatments that last just a couple of years.
What's a 25 year guarantee worth on timber that has remained in place for hundreds of years?

 

[Gervase]

Crikey, this is just like a case-study from Richard Oxley's truly excellent Survey and Repar of Traditional Buildings,
to quote him:

In many cases property professionals, banks and building societies drive the demand for guarantees, based on the desire for a single, instant solution. More often than not such a solution does not exist, but the benefit of a guarantee gives credibiliity in many cases to what are - when examined closely - spurious practices.

He adds:

Increased expectations can be compounded when a building is subject to the whims and desires of several owners over a relatively short period of time, An active property market...may result in some buildings have a new owner as often as every three to five years. This will take its toll....changes made to meet short-term economic gains are not necessarily the best long-term solutions and are invariably not the only option.

This is not meant to be a dig at Anys or shilly or anyone else - merely a plea for restraint when dealing with older buildings. To quote again - this time from William Morris in one of the earliest SPAB reports:

These old buildings do not belong to us only...they have belonged to our forefathers and they will belong to our descendents unless we play them false. They are not...our property to do as we like with. We are only trusteees for those that come after us.

 

[biffvernon]

Best use for the certificate is to cut it up into little bits and paste it over the holes. Then you can see if beetles emerge as they will have to chew through the paper.

When you sell the house include in the sale price a decent textbook on timber infestation such as Timber Decay in Buildings: The conservation approach to treatment Brian Ridout, from
Amazon
or, even cheaper! from SPAB.

 

[Matt Green]

Yes I know all this and the building is dry, with a new roof, and will be very well-aired, but the bottom line is will whoever comes after us know it as well, looking at the plethora of wormholes ... hence a guarantee certificate. It's a matter of giving peace of mind really. These beams have never been stained or painted and we don't plan to stain or paint them, just seal them.

You are knowingly and deliberately spraying insecticide onto solid oak because they have some holes in the surface. You realise and accept the entire procedure is worthless and you are doing this for a 'guarantee'.

Why not leave it alone and see who you sell to and whether they care about insect flight holes that are older than they are? It's possible that their surveyor may take the sensible route and tell them the flight holes are old. If the seller's pack or somesuch comes in you could get an independent timber surveyor to confirm the timber is fine.

Maybe, if enough people did that, then needless chemical spraying might decline and there would be less reliance on worthless certificates. You get to be part of the solution rather than perpetuating the problem.


Matt
-trying to keep a lid on his temper.

 

[Nemesis]

Matt - oh how much I agree!

 

[shilly]

Crickey, wish I never mentioned the blighters!
My only desire was not to have a new infestation of worm when it could be prevented. I do not mind the worm holes at all. However if the previous owners (at some point in time) had of treated their woodworm, we might of been able to save the 12" elm boards we had. They were beautiful, but so wormy, you walked on them and they collapsed under you , (on a top unused floor in the house). Had someone had access to a wonderful site like this, we may of been able to keep those boards. So all treatment is not bad I feel!!
btw - unable to reply a lot as no electric and am using the local libary.
Middi - yes, Biffs comments are excellent.
Anys - dont bother about a certificate, if someone loves your home when you go to sell it on, they wont worry about a trival thing like that. We didnt when we bought ours, we just moved new woodworm in instead!
Lime - agree with you, we were so lucky as so many people looked at the house we have now live in and no one wanted it because it needed so much work doing to it and wasn't perfect, so their loss was our gain.
Back to laying floorboards!

 

[NT]

A purchaser's surveypr should be able to tell if wormholes are new or old.

NT