Hi all newbie here . Really interesting forum regarding all things period property related. I’m hoping I can get some help regarding our cottage renovation. We’ve gone down the total lime route on our renovation, lime pointing, lime Crete floors , limed internal walls etc . We are insulating all the internal walls with wood fibre boards and plaster skimming to finish . My issue with these boards is any fixings into them . How are kitchen units fitted over these boards ? The walls are rough rumbled solid stone walls which I’ve levelled off using lime backing plaster and then the boards will be glued onto the walls and probably mechanically fixed also , but when heavy objects are fastened to the walls { ie kitchen wall units } what are the units fixed to ? The stone is very friable and any fixings that hit a lime joint will simply fail I think . Reading installation literature about wood fibre boards there seems to be a reluctance to put wooden pattresses in the wall prior to covering with the boards due to the risk of moisture build up ? therefore any fixings thru the boards and into the substrate behind are going to be pot luck as to wether a good grab is found ? Has anyone else had this problem and found a solution to it ? Many thanks in advance
- Thread starter P. Rid
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worms
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Is the moisture concern about the wood pattresses, the risk of an air void behind the woodfibre boards? Could you instead build out a frame and pattress, then as you line out with the woodfibre boards, pack behind them with a loosefill insulation such as hemp?
I guess an alternative way of looking at the problem would be to go with a "period" free-standing kitchen?
I guess an alternative way of looking at the problem would be to go with a "period" free-standing kitchen?
Zebra
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I have used woodfibre boards but haven't fixed anything to them, only through them to the substrate. Worms' is a good idea, maybe also you could lay a strip of an impermeable fabric behind any timber studs that you place in the wall, preventing moisture transfer from the wall to the timber. I think the area would be so small that damp build-up behind them wouldn't be an issue.
CliffordPope
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I share your problems in attaching anything hefty to walls that are of a completely unpredictable character.
Some times I hit what feels like granite 1/4" below the surface, and it takes ages with the hammer action powerdrill to get in far enough to use a short rawlplug.
At other times I hit a soft spot and the drill goes in a foot before hitting anything substantial. Or it can feel strong enough and then suddenly crumble when tightening the screw.
Usually the screws range from 2 to 4".
The best method I generally find is to attach battens, peppering them with trial holes like a burst of machine gun bullets, then when securely attached screw the shelf or pan hook etc to the batten, filling all the holes if visible.
Some times I hit what feels like granite 1/4" below the surface, and it takes ages with the hammer action powerdrill to get in far enough to use a short rawlplug.
At other times I hit a soft spot and the drill goes in a foot before hitting anything substantial. Or it can feel strong enough and then suddenly crumble when tightening the screw.
Usually the screws range from 2 to 4".
The best method I generally find is to attach battens, peppering them with trial holes like a burst of machine gun bullets, then when securely attached screw the shelf or pan hook etc to the batten, filling all the holes if visible.
Go through them, secure to the wall with longer fixings.
For kitchen units use the long (1m) brackets not the tiny 2 inch ones come as standard, that way you can use a LOT of screws. You may need to notch the backs of cabinets a bit but worth it. It also makes leveling easier.
Whenever I fix anything to the wall I clean and blow out the hole and add a squirt of grip fill before putting in the rawl plug. Seems to make a big difference.
Cheers,
Richard B.
For kitchen units use the long (1m) brackets not the tiny 2 inch ones come as standard, that way you can use a LOT of screws. You may need to notch the backs of cabinets a bit but worth it. It also makes leveling easier.
Whenever I fix anything to the wall I clean and blow out the hole and add a squirt of grip fill before putting in the rawl plug. Seems to make a big difference.
Cheers,
Richard B.
Zebra
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Love a bit of gripfill..... fantastic stuff. Hard to get off the hooves, but worth it.
stuart45
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Where I live most of the older houses are built with chert, which is like flint.
Even a standard SDS will struggle to get through, but a reasonably priced Titan which delivers about 10J will go in quite easily without burning out the bit. It's probably the most powerful SDS around, unless you get in 4 figures for a Hilti.
A proper SDS is worlds apart from a "hammer drill" I also touch up the tips of my SDS bits on the bench grinder, makes a notable difference.
I’ve been abusing one of these for 6 years now, used it for roughing out when doing stone masonry in a hurry, breaking up concrete slabs, drilled very long diagonal holes through 2ft stone walls for plumbing pipes - even core drilled a 150mm hole in a wall with it the other week for an AC vent. Has paid for itself a million times over
Bosch GBH 2-26 2.7kg Electric SDS Plus 240V
Order online at Screwfix.com. Versatile and reliable SDS plus drill with variable speed setting providing fast drilling and high chiselling removal rate. Fitted with an overload clutch to ensure both user and machine are protected on the job. Can comfortably and efficiently drill through tough...
www.screwfix.com
Thanks for the replies guys , lots to think about . I’ve always been minded to screw a long pattress along the length of what will become the kitchen wall and then fit wood fibre boards over the top of this . I think if the patress is set flush to the backing plaster then hopefully no moisture can build up behind it and then at least any units will get a solid fixing.
Toby Newell
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pattress or battens.
search for fischer fixings.
also search for Wakol MS262 600ml hybrid silane adhesive.
think Toolstation is only main end user company selling hybrid adhesive, its called MULTISTICK by Everbuild (Sika - made in UK)
In about 10 years everyone will be using it.
Gripfill is awful stuff, skins over in seconds, dries brittle, breaks, I never ever use it.
Hybrid modified silane adhesives are moisture curing, cure in damp, under water, have high grab, long skin time and remain permanently flexible.
i have been early adopter 10yrs+ using in flooring industry.
last job 1685 floors and stairs rebuild and restore was mega creaking every board, now 100% solid.
I used around 50 (not a typo) Multisticks and around 10 Wakol sausages.
Wakol has higher cured strength and more flexibility but slower curing and less initial grab.
£90 Swiss sausage gun optional... (get a sausage gun as the Multisticks are longer than average tubes and less stress on your wrists)
I have used several hundred kilos of the stuff, I once ordered a pallet over to Guernsey.
See below, ultimate test... I finally fitted aluminium cargo aircraft track to my van, the Stainless self tapping screws didnt work out that well... on the floor, the sides and roof easier to get a fix... the track is mostly held in my Multistick, so far only one long 3.5hrs trip but not pulled out. Not sure what pressure I crank the ratchets to but must be a few tens of kilos each.
I will be gutted if they pull out! But pretty good so far.
search for fischer fixings.
also search for Wakol MS262 600ml hybrid silane adhesive.
think Toolstation is only main end user company selling hybrid adhesive, its called MULTISTICK by Everbuild (Sika - made in UK)
In about 10 years everyone will be using it.
Gripfill is awful stuff, skins over in seconds, dries brittle, breaks, I never ever use it.
Hybrid modified silane adhesives are moisture curing, cure in damp, under water, have high grab, long skin time and remain permanently flexible.
i have been early adopter 10yrs+ using in flooring industry.
last job 1685 floors and stairs rebuild and restore was mega creaking every board, now 100% solid.
I used around 50 (not a typo) Multisticks and around 10 Wakol sausages.
Wakol has higher cured strength and more flexibility but slower curing and less initial grab.
£90 Swiss sausage gun optional... (get a sausage gun as the Multisticks are longer than average tubes and less stress on your wrists)
I have used several hundred kilos of the stuff, I once ordered a pallet over to Guernsey.
See below, ultimate test... I finally fitted aluminium cargo aircraft track to my van, the Stainless self tapping screws didnt work out that well... on the floor, the sides and roof easier to get a fix... the track is mostly held in my Multistick, so far only one long 3.5hrs trip but not pulled out. Not sure what pressure I crank the ratchets to but must be a few tens of kilos each.
I will be gutted if they pull out! But pretty good so far.
Toby Newell
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lol, I laught at the Bott... cost £10k and can only carry 20% of what I carry with my bespoke bodge it system.
works great if you follow the cardinal rule...
always always ALWAYS! if you need one box... ALWAYS retighten the straps IMMEDIATELY and don't think, oh, I will do that before I leave at the end of the day...
because first corner or sharp breaking and CRASH!
I fuggin forgot to tighten it didn't I... AGAIN.
So far never ever one broken systainer, only one old cracked CTL hose garage.
Quite remarkably robust for super crappy ABS styrene, which is basically Airfix.
Malcolm should shoot me for thread hijacking.
I think I am so excited about the photo thing! I can't get over how brilliant it is to quickly and simply post a normal size photo without first reducing to the size of a postage stamp. Hopefully the novelty wears off
works great if you follow the cardinal rule...
always always ALWAYS! if you need one box... ALWAYS retighten the straps IMMEDIATELY and don't think, oh, I will do that before I leave at the end of the day...
because first corner or sharp breaking and CRASH!
I fuggin forgot to tighten it didn't I... AGAIN.
So far never ever one broken systainer, only one old cracked CTL hose garage.
Quite remarkably robust for super crappy ABS styrene, which is basically Airfix.
Malcolm should shoot me for thread hijacking.
I think I am so excited about the photo thing! I can't get over how brilliant it is to quickly and simply post a normal size photo without first reducing to the size of a postage stamp. Hopefully the novelty wears off
Thanks, Toby really interesting.
I had been looking at alternatives recently. I really like the concept of the sausages, less waste more per package etc..
How do you get on with the sausages? Easy to change? Messy? Storable / reusable a week later?
p.s. The systainer van is an impressive collection. I hope its safe at night.
Cheers,
Richard B.
Toby Newell
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sausages = less waste.
more likely to find higher spec industrial grade stuff in sausage foils cf. diy grade in plastic tubes.
flooring sales only sent me 2 nozzles for 5 sausages! buggers... luckily I save mine so i have a few spare.
basically very similar between both, sausages bit more messy, there is a knack, push material back, cut just behind the crimp or even just a small slash.
longevity v similar, save nozzles where u can, ie if you use 2 sausages in one go, dont throw nozzle away, reuse old one and keep other as spare.
keep out of the heat and they will last weeks opened, just throw old nozzle and fit new, you can clean old nozzle, but its a PITA.
gripfill is basically Lecol 5500, cheap, grey, methyl acetate solvented synthetic resin, it has great strengrh but dries very hard, goes brittle and often fails catastrophically.
havent used it for over 13 years.
silane hybrid been used in quality floors for a decade now, if you see someone laying a floor without it either they are ignorant or skimping.
try and rip your running shoe sole (the thick rubbery part) thats similar stuff, super tough, you cannot rip it... yet flexible.
gripfill et al are fine is there is no differential expansion / excess movement, if there is = catastrophic failure.
still remember being on site, somewhere near St Pauls, we heard a BAAAAM!!! like a grenade going off (working on big office floor c. hundreds sqm) heating had recently been comissioned, maple skirting wriggled and said, 'I want move please' gripfill said no...
maple won. to be fair, the gripfill took half the brickwork with it, but kind of moot. high modulus permanently flexible adhesive might of taken up the movement elastically.
sorry to get all engineering but gripfill has almost zero elastic or plastic range, it goes, Im ok, Im ok, still ok, still ok, Bam! Smash! Crash! Sorry, not ok...
Im upset they stopped importing the Swiss made Soroton guns, I remember buying it 13 years ago, Hamish popped it on the counter and said 'Thats £73 inc. VAT' i went what??? for a glue gun? He looked at me and said 'It's a good one and it's the only one we have'
13 years and several hundred kilos later later I realise, it is a good one and I wish I could buy another, you can buy similar if slightly lesser quakity ones for around £60.
Sausage guns are much easier on the wrists and you can also squeeze any mono plastic tube with them as well, you just change the pusher plug.
and no my van isnt safe, neither is any potential thief. alarm, two immobilisers, £2k armour guard plates, euro van lock deadbolts, is more at risk in customers property tbh.
more likely to find higher spec industrial grade stuff in sausage foils cf. diy grade in plastic tubes.
flooring sales only sent me 2 nozzles for 5 sausages! buggers... luckily I save mine so i have a few spare.
basically very similar between both, sausages bit more messy, there is a knack, push material back, cut just behind the crimp or even just a small slash.
longevity v similar, save nozzles where u can, ie if you use 2 sausages in one go, dont throw nozzle away, reuse old one and keep other as spare.
keep out of the heat and they will last weeks opened, just throw old nozzle and fit new, you can clean old nozzle, but its a PITA.
gripfill is basically Lecol 5500, cheap, grey, methyl acetate solvented synthetic resin, it has great strengrh but dries very hard, goes brittle and often fails catastrophically.
havent used it for over 13 years.
silane hybrid been used in quality floors for a decade now, if you see someone laying a floor without it either they are ignorant or skimping.
try and rip your running shoe sole (the thick rubbery part) thats similar stuff, super tough, you cannot rip it... yet flexible.
gripfill et al are fine is there is no differential expansion / excess movement, if there is = catastrophic failure.
still remember being on site, somewhere near St Pauls, we heard a BAAAAM!!! like a grenade going off (working on big office floor c. hundreds sqm) heating had recently been comissioned, maple skirting wriggled and said, 'I want move please' gripfill said no...
maple won. to be fair, the gripfill took half the brickwork with it, but kind of moot. high modulus permanently flexible adhesive might of taken up the movement elastically.
sorry to get all engineering but gripfill has almost zero elastic or plastic range, it goes, Im ok, Im ok, still ok, still ok, Bam! Smash! Crash! Sorry, not ok...
Im upset they stopped importing the Swiss made Soroton guns, I remember buying it 13 years ago, Hamish popped it on the counter and said 'Thats £73 inc. VAT' i went what??? for a glue gun? He looked at me and said 'It's a good one and it's the only one we have'
13 years and several hundred kilos later later I realise, it is a good one and I wish I could buy another, you can buy similar if slightly lesser quakity ones for around £60.
Sausage guns are much easier on the wrists and you can also squeeze any mono plastic tube with them as well, you just change the pusher plug.
and no my van isnt safe, neither is any potential thief. alarm, two immobilisers, £2k armour guard plates, euro van lock deadbolts, is more at risk in customers property tbh.
Did you make progress with this project? What kind of solution did you use at the end? We are planning our kitchen at the moment. Two of the walls are external and will have IWI. We have a 50s kitchen with relatively heavy cabinets. Bottom ones are freestanding but ones that need to go on the walls are a bit challenging.
I have come across the following options:
-Fischer thermax 8 and 10 (recommended with the pavadentro system)
-Multifunction frame plug MFR SB TX from Celo fixings