Wooden Sashes: How do I get a good product/installer

[Hiriaeth]

I want to replace all my 1980s UPVC yuk windows and return to wooden sashes.
How do I:

1. Find a good product/reputable company/joiner: any recommendations for North Wales?
2. What sort of wood should be used?
3. How to care for them so they last well
4. Is it possible to have sashes that don't swell in wet weather so you can't open them?
5. How do I know Im not being ripped off price wise, my windows are all roughly 110cm by 149 cm anyone have any idea what would be a reasonable price to supply and fit per window (or just supply)
6. What are the buildings rwegs on these re insulation?

etc etc in fact any info on finding and installing sashes without being ripped off or destroying forests would be most welcome. House is small welsh farmhouse in very exposed site 1000 foot up west facing mountain.

Many thanks

 

[Moo]

Did the installers of the UPVC horrors rip out the 'works' as well as the sashes?
If they left them in, that would make quite a difference to the cost.

 

[biffvernon]

First decide what you want (assuming your house is not listed and you have a choice). Do you want a reproduction of an 18th or 19th century design (which probably won't pass Building Regs) or do you want a 21st century design.

Q1. If you want traditional, go to your nearest traditional joiner, and ask him the answer to Qs 2-6, skipping the rest of this message. If you want something completly different ask me.

Q2. English Oak.

Q3. Clean the glass from time to time.

Q4. Yes.

Q5. Whether you feel ripped off is a subjective feeling but I might charge in the region of £800 per window to supply, depending on design details.

Q6. The simple answer is U-value less than 2, which means double glazed units, low-e glass, argon fill, insulated spacers. (There is a more complicated answer involving SAP calculations but don't go there if you can avoid it.) There are also issues about emergency egress and when safety glass is reqired.

 

[Hiriaeth]

No Nothing is left of the sashes just foamed in UPVC.

Design I am looking for a traditional 4 pane victorian cottage style sash. I want it to meet buildings regulations so how do I go about that ? Presumably they have to have double glazed panes.

Being ripped off is of course subjective (for me it usually means people who say theyll do a job then wait months before finally telling me they can't. I just meant to get an idea of what would be a reasonable price for supplying and fitting.

I hadn't thought of Oak, thanks! Can anyone recommend a good Paint that lasts well in very exposed conditions and how often to repaint (depends I know)

My father in law had new expensive sashes installed which have always been impossible to open always swelling and sticking why would this be?

All info is greatly received thank you

 

[biffvernon]

Building Regs - I think I answered that in Q6 above. Yes, you will need double glazing unless yours in a listed building or in certain Conservation Areas. A replica of Victorian design is therefore not legal.

Waiting months - that kinda comes with the territory. Most joiners are too busy fitting kitchens or building airport terminals.

Paint - real linseed oil paint such as that made by Allback of Sweden and supplied by Holkham Paints. The manufacturers recommend applying a coat of linseed oil after seven years and a coat of paint after a further seven years, this fourteen year maintenance cycle to be continued indefinitely.

Window sticking - the sash is bigger than the hole it slides in. Take it out, plane a little off, add brush pile draught excluder to stop it rattling in the wind, replace.

 

[Ian Bond]

But Part L1B of the regs does not just exempt listed buildings or those in CAs...

See Page 18, Historic Buildings in the General Guidance section.

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADL1B_2006.pdf

Which refers to...

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/upload/pdf/ign_partl_buildingregs.pdf

See 3.6 Other Buildings on Page 6.

Yes, I know it is only guidance, and yes I know that you may get an intransigent BCO. But the above is what the docs actually state.

I'm in favour of energy conservation, but still cannot get past my concerns with sealed DG units. It seems to be taken as a matter of course that they will fail after 20 years or so, and need to be replaced. At great cost to the householder.

We've got the technology to make efficient windows that would last centuries. Durable Oak frames and sashes, shutters, secondary glazing, draught proofing, etc etc.

Why build in obsolescence, with an element that is destined to fail perhaps more than 10 times over the lifespan of the window?

At least Hiriaeth's 4 pane windows should be easier to double glaze than other styles, for example 16 pane windows. The thought of having 16 sealed units to replace in each window is horrifying. But perhaps 'applied' glazing bars would be more appropriate in that case?

 

[biffvernon]

Hmmm, I'm making some 16 pane windows at the moment, separate double glazed sealed units. I have some in my own house that are now 20 years old and they haven't failed yet. So far (ok I'm tempting fate) none of my customers has come back to me with a misted up unit. If (when) a unit does mist up the difficulty of taking it out and putting in a new one is equivalent to repairing a broken pane in a single glazed window. A nuisance but not the end of the world.

In terms of energy use, the amount saved by the average householder with double glazing should far outweigh the embedded energy in manufacture so the Government have got this aspect about right. Sometimes people just enjoy warmer houses but that's harder to legislate about.

 

[Nemesis]

I have one in a roof light that failed within a very short space of time, sadly, and I stayed in a holiday let with a really bad one. It may be poor installation or older DG, but it can happen.

Still think old houses with small windows the energy saving costs are overplayed, use of secondary glazing, shutters, curtains etc all help.

 

[biffvernon]

Oh I've got a heap of dg units in my conservatory that failed within a year - they lasted longer than the company that made them! My point is that units can last a long time, maybe a very long time, if well made and well fitted.

Regular readers will know that, despite my enthusiasm for thermally efficient windows, I'm also a bit of an extremist when it comes to damaging the integrity of any historic fabric. But there again, I also note that very thin glazing bars were a passing fad (well, it took a while to pass) of the Georgian and Victorian times. Double glazed units are quite compatible with glazing bars of the dimensions common in Queen Anne's day and espoused by Rennie Mackintosh.

 

[Ian Bond]

But it's not just the inconvenience that concerns me, it is the cost to the poor householder who has the misfortune to inherit the DG units some years down the line, when they start failing.

With say 4 units per window, would you replace just the one that failed, and hope the other 3 don't follow suit in a short time? Or replace the entire window, which seems to be common practice. Particularly with uPVC frames that can be in poor condition after a number of years service, and are often hard to repair cost effectively.

I agree that it does depend on the quality of the materials and workmanship, and guess that only a small percentage of modern windows will be anywhere near the quality of those made by Biff.

I too know of examples of large DG units still going strong after 25+ years, whereas another unit in the bay has recently failed and needed replacing.

The impression I get, and I may be wrong, is that the industry accepts that a 20 year lifespan for a DG unit is good. Perhaps most people accept that with out throw-away society? New (old) house, new kitchen, new bathroom, new windows?

Nemesis, I agree about the energy savings being overplayed in some cases. Especially in terraces of the window tax era, with very small areas of glazing indeed.

The supposed energy savings translate to warmer homes, and not having to wear your woolies indoors all winter! And I often see houses with the double glazed windows open on the coldest days, to get fresh air in - some people must have money to burn.

Sealed unit double glazing is great in theory. And probably OK in high quality, craftman-made windows, for at least 20 years. It's the high proportion of not-so-good stuff that bothers me. And the fact that DG is now effectively mandatory seems to me only to help the double glazing industry.

 

[Nemesis]

This is a useful article about windows, from another part of this site:

http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/ppuk_discovering_article_041.shtml

 

[biffvernon]

Of course I know nothing of uPVC. The sooner they fail the better

I do think that the savings in fuel bills will be greater than the cost of sealed units, even if they do have to be replaced one day and the Government are right to push for better standards of building insulation. Pity they haven't gone further. Standards in new build are still pretty poor.

No point replacing a unit that hasn't failed. The reasons for failure in a particular unit do not mean that the neighbouring unit will fail soon after.

The industry obviously enjoys the short life of componants - that way they stay in business. It does seem to be an unfortunate side-effect of our society.

I don't think there are very many terraces dating from before the abolition of window tax.

 

[Nemesis]

Hmmmm....


http://www.longparish.org.uk/history/windowtax.htm

 

[Ian Bond]

I'm in one now. Still a few left around here, despite the best efforts of the 'improvers'.

Window tax or not, in a terrace the glazed area in relation to the external building envelope and floor area is often tiny. Paricularly mid terrace. My house had just 4 windows for 1,700 square feet of living space - less than 60 sq feet of glass.

Excepting weavers' cottages - plenty of them survive around here, and some lovely ranges of windows.

I'm still concerned that you could be letting yourself in for an endless cycles of swapping out misted glazing units. When for single glazing it was only accidental damage (or vandalism) that would make it necessary to put in a new pane.

For most people, in houses old or new, the legislation is no problem, because they want double glazing anyway. Regardless that it will need replacing before it has paid for itself.

 

[biffvernon]

Regardless that it will need replacing before it has paid for itself.

I charge the same price for a window that is double glazed or single glazed, despite the single glazing being more expensive. You see I buy sealed units for around £50 per square metre and hand made cylinder glass at £80 / m^2 (and then I waste some). The single glazed customers get a good deal because I prefer doing it

 

[Ian Bond]

Tatra P1 glass?

I suppose you could use cheap, ordinary plain glass for the single glazing and never have to replace it unless broken. Of course it wouldn't look anywhere near as good in a Period Property. Unless it was a replacement for polished plate perhaps?

Given the choice, I'd prefer the wobbly single glazed stuff.

My comment was directed at the replacement of windows with DG, and supposed energy savings versus actual payback time.

 

[biffvernon]

Tatra P1 it is. I suppose I could use cheap glass but I wouldn't enjoy it so I don't. Anyway it wouldn't make much difference to the price as most of the cost is labour not materials.

I wouldn't replace windows until they needed replacing, either because they had fallen irretrivably apart or they were plastic. At that point the cost effectiveness of double glazing is a no-brainer, since using twice as much glass adds little to the cost of a new window.

 

[Ian Bond]

Granted, but the quality windows that we're talking about here are a tiny minority of the total (at the moment).

I'd still rather fit single glazing once (in oak frames) and forget it, rather than having the future expense of replacing failed DG units, regardless of the proportion of materials to labour cost.

 

[Hiriaeth]

well thanks all the info has been really useful. I guess it is slightly bad from an environmental perspective for me to be getting rid of the old upvc windows just because I think they look horrible and will not help sell the house. They looked slightly better before the plasterers covered them in plaster which they assured me comes off so easily and doesn't! Useful to know the price of glass units per m2 thanks! I must say I would rather have single glazed old sashes with a few drafts, wear more clothes and be happy in the knowledge that I won't be overcome by carbon monoxide!Thanks everyone