windows, doors - delay and not fitting.

[glayzell]

I was hoping for some advice here. I have been resotring a grade 2 listed georgian semi for the last 18 months. I am having an extension build and all my windows are bespoke.

The long and short of it is: I was ordering the windows and doors in two orders. I first asked them to sart the 1st half in early March. I had 4 windows delivered last wednesday and 3 of them didnt fit, and had to have either side panels taken off them and or planed to go in the holes. I was also expecting at the very least a big door with a fan light. I also thought i had a set of double doors and another single door being delivered, but there would appear they had a 'miscommunication'.

The thing is, i am paying £15k for the windows and doors and after 4 months they have supplied 4 windows, of which 3 had to be made to fit.

on monday I said i want to cancel the rest of the order as i have no faith in their urgency or confidence that they are going to fit. I was elequently told this morning that if i do that i will have to pay for the work and time on the other windows they started which they measured up for last thursday lunch time. I said they should balance that figure against the delay and windows that dont fit.

I feel like i am being bullied into them finishing off all my windows and doors because i cant afford the fight or time delay getting someone else in ( i have spoken to another firm who said 8 weeks from monday and have my drawings).

What should i do? any advice?

 

[Pford75]

I sympathise.....can you help by answering some questions first?

1. Do you have any form of contract, conditions of sale or other written communication between you and the vendor?
2. What have you paid to date and how did you pay it (cash, cheque, credit card)?
3. Did you inform the manufacturers of the problems with the initial delivery of windows
4. You mention 2 orders...can you answer the above questions for each order specifically?
5. What date were each of the 2 orders placed on, when were you advised to expect delivery and what actual delivery dates have been given?

There are a few other things I may need to know, but this would be a good start.

 

[glayzell]

here goes...

Order 1
1. No signed contract. I have a quote for order 1, of which a door and fanlight are still missing.
2. i paid £3k cash
3. They were delivered on 17.07 and the first we new of the problems were on monday 21.07 when they were fitted. I told them they didnt fit on 21.07. When i spoke with the chippie fitting them on monday he said he could get them to fit so i said to go ahead.

Order 2
1. same as above, i have a quote for the whole project, but then i recieved a seperate quote for order 1 and after they measured up for Order 2 on 17.07 i was expecting a second quote, but i wasnt waiting on that on for them to start... i had been delayed enough.
2. I havent paid any more than the £3k above.
4...
5. I believe i gave the verbal go ahead for Order 1 on 27.03.08, although it is a bit more complicated than that, even so on 21st May they came round again to measure up (notice the 2 months between me giving the ok and measuring up on site) and i was again clear about what i wanted made and what I didnt at that point.

I was clear about the urgency. They were appologetic for the delay and said they had a problem which had caused a backlog. The words from the manager were, 'any time we have lost thus far we will make up in the workshop'. On or around 20.06.08 i called to ask how they getting on, they said, with some pressing 'next week', i call the following week and was told, 'just waiting on 2 pieces of glass, next week', my wife called the following week and was told, 'next week' and then I called to say that they could come and measure for Order 2 and they said, 'your windows are ready'.

Order 2 was given the verbal go ahead on 17.07.08. I said that i needed these windows before the end of August.

does that help... thanks for your time..

 

[Pford75]

Ok...thanks for the info.

As a general rule, I would always advise the use of a clear contract (even if this is just in the form of you setting out what you believe you have asked the vendor to provide - with specifications if this is critical, when/how and at what cost). You should also seek to pay by credit card where possible since this in most cases provides insurance and dispute resolution. Furthermore, any situation where dates are important, be very clear in the letter/contract that 'time is of the essence' and ideally set out the action to be taken in the event of delays (cancellation, reduced cost etc.)

However, you need some advice on the situation you are already in.....

1. In the absence of any clear written documentation between you and the vendor, it will be very difficult for either party to pursue any form of legal action. (either you for non-delivery or them for the costs of goods you 'ordered')

2. The GBP3000 you have already paid is not I assume the whole sum of the first 'order' and therefore, you have already received goods to a value in excess of this figure? eg. Order 1 total cost = 7500.....less double door and single door not delivered - 2000 = total cost of order 1 = 5500. You have already paid 3000 and therefore still 'owe' a balance for order 1. (I don't know if it is possible for you to calculate these costs from the info you have). You have a legal (and moral) obligation to pay for the goods already received. If it is not possible to calculate this cost yourself, you should request this from the vendor (suggest a letter via recorded post)

3. Without a clear 'order' or any terms and conditions of sale, it would be challenging for the vendor to pursue you for his 'committed costs'. He would have to demonstrate that you entered into a contract (difficult without documentation) and you could then counter-claim that even if a contract were proven, that he had broken the contract with the delayed deliveries.

As I see it you have x options:

1. Pay the outstanding 'order 1' sum and walk away - Providing you ensure an adequate paper trail, it will be very unlikely that they will pursue you.

2. Walk away now - If the 3000 already paid is less than the 'price' of goods already delivered, then they could pursue you via small claims court. However, without a breakdown of the various order 'prices' ie. order 1 + order 2 this could be tricky/messy for either party to prove. It's also not exactly ethical.

3. Meet with the vendor (face to face)....set out a clear list of outstanding issues and jointly devise a timetable for resolution. Agree a price for each individual window/door and the date each one will be delivered. Confirm this in writing to the vendor and that you reserve your right not to purchase if these dates are missed (time being of the essence)

Bear in mind that if you don't get these windows from this vendor, you will have the delay of someone else providing them...so reaching an agreement is probably the most desireable option. You just need to break the cycle of 'one more week' by a face to face mtg and some written communication.

I know this all sounds a bit 'formal', but to be honest, it's to the benefit of both parties to understand the basis of a contract. The best builders and tradespeople welcome these sort of discussions. You're not alone however....there are a lot of people who essentially enter into a transaction worth 000's of pounds without any clear documentation on what is included.

Hope that helps...if anything isn't clear, please do post again.

 

[skier-hughes]

One bit of advice.

From this point forward, do everything in writing.
Keep copies
Note all telephone conversations, names etc and write notes immediately afterwards and forward on to the company.

Unfortunately, although you can have verbal contracts, whose record is going to be right?

Yours giving your dates and the urgency, or theirs, giving totally different dates and the lack of urgency, "he even called several times to say not to worry, I'm not in any need for my windows yet".

You are between that rock and hard place.

Easiest option would be to complete on what they have started and cancel rest if that is really what you want to do.

Edit as PFord has posted

1. I disagree, harder to say you hadn't ordered the goods as you have already taken delviery of some of them, easier for them to prove you had ordered.
2. They'd no doubt win any claim and you'd get bad credit. I wouldn't do this.
3. Absolutely, a great idea. But don't shilly shally on dates, if it needs to be done by August 26th, say it needs to be done by August 26th, not week commencing, not around August 26th.

This is a business contract and formal is what is needed, informality has caused this mess, in my opinion :wink:


Graham

 

[Schoolmarm]

As well as all the above, try and find out if the company is in any financial difficulties. Also if they have a history of financial trouble.

You can do searches for company directors, limited companies and just trouble in general.

 

[glayzell]

wow, thanks for that. i met with the director of the company this morning and calmly vented my frustrations. I said that i would happily pay the balance of the items i have recieved, but would be reluctant to pay any more. He didnt really like that, but i guess that is where our arguement will be.

He said he would come back to me today or tomorrow with some options with figures, eg, walk away now £x, we carry on and produce the rest of the order(s) in x weels for £x.

essentially, all i want are the windows and doors they said they would make me, and i havent had any of that yet.

If i stick with them i will devise a contract, i know a few solicitors who i can get to look over it for me.

I have to say i would rather walk away out of principle. I have spoken to another firm who seem more 'with it' and have given a clear 8 week timescale for the rest of the job.

Thanks Pford75, really appreciate the advice.

 

[glayzell]

graham,

I have begun the process of recording. The director said he would call me, i asked him to email. When i said to him i cancelled the order on monday, he said technically not as it should be in wrting, i didnt argue the point i faxed them a letter saying i cancelled the order on monday.

I will carefully record our conversation this morning and will do with everything from now on.

I dont think there are any financial difficulties, I was a bit annoyed that the director arrived in a new range rover vogue and i am rattling around in an old corolla!

 

[skier-hughes]

Good news.

Everyone has problems at times, it's how they deal with them that matters, and so far they have been disappointing.

I think you'll probably find they whip themselves into shape now and you have to decide if it is biting off your nose to spite your face, or you really can't be bothered in dealing with them anymore.

If you do, ensure that there is a clause in there about the fit of the windows, you can't complain to them after your chippie has altered them to fit, ensure anyone who makes your windows is responsible for their "fitability"

Edit - technically as you didn't have acontract that says you have to cancel in writing, you cancelled the order.

Graham

 

[glayzell]

Edit - technically as you didn't have acontract that says you have to cancel in writing, you cancelled the order.

Graham

exactly, i just didnt have the energy to argue that point this morning. I wrote a little letter that said i cancelled it on monday and shouldnt be accountable for any work they did after that date.

I know what you mean about cutting my nose to spite my face, I am trying to decide whether or not i can be bothered with them any more. It is so draining having to deal with it. If they come back to me and knock a grand or two off the price for the delay and inconvenience so far and agree to supply them in 4 weeks than i think i will probably stick with hit, but if not i will be off.

 

[Pford75]

Good news and hope it gets sorted....I would imagine that if they have already started work on th windows, they will be keen to compromise rather than have you go elsewhere. I would encourage you to have a clear view in mind on what it is that you want from them ie. discount of xxx and all remaining windows delivered by yy/yy. It also helps if you can justify the discount you want, beyond irritation factor.....for example, the delay in supplying windows has delayed other works and you have therefore incurred additional costs.

On the contract, I personally wouldn't bother with a solicitor (and I say that as the son of one!).....a 'contract' can be a simple letter or email between the two parties. It needn't be full of legalese....just set out

1. Who are the parties (ie. you are the customer....company x....trading at address is the supplier)
2. Description of the work being undertaken (be as specific as possible...use diagrams if it helps).
3. Timeline of works....when will bits be completed? What other work is dependant on this....where are the priorities? If they have given specific promisies, include them here....but be prepared to accept that not all work can be timed exactly and they may provide a range eg. 4-6 weeks.
4. Payment schedule - what is the total cost, does it include VAT? Are payments due on given dates or on completion of specific items? Ideally, break down costs in a large contract to specific items....makes it easier to discuss if certain items are missing or the job details change
5. Termination - Can the contract be terminated halfway through and how should this be done (eg. employing a builder on day rates will require a termination clause, whereas a fixed price contract will not)
6. Changes - I would recommend that you include something along the lines of "Any unforseen works, changes to specification, timing or costs should be discussed and agreed in writing by both parties"

 

[biffvernon]

What a nightmare. As a window maker I'll chuck in my two pennyworth from another perspective. Windows that don't fit are pretty common. When measuring old buildings (and new ones, come to think of it) the holes in walls are never square and my windows probably aren't square either in a precise mathematical sense. The trick is to get a tight fit. It's better to be a bit tight and have to plane a bit off at the pinch points than to have gaping gaps that need to be filled with bucket-fulls of mortar or expanding foam (don't go there). Of course if there has been a mis-measurement, then its the fault of whoever read the tape measure (usually me).

Contrary to all the very sensible advice about written contracts, I never use them. If folk insist (nobody in my experience ever has) I would point them in the directions of my Small Print. And if they didn't like it I would suddenly become very busy for the next ten years and suggest Jewsons/Everest/The Acme Plastic Company. On the other hand, I never accept payment for work, beyond a small, maybe 10%, deposit until the customer has the goods and is satisfied. This leaves the advantage (possession being nine tenths of the law) firmly in the hands of the customer.

Regarding timing, I frequently find that customers underestimate the time their project takes. I know of one case where somebody insisted they had a window by a particular date. Eighteen months on and it still hasn't been fitted.

Over the last several years my system has only broken down once, leaving me with a particularly classy cucumber frame.

Good luck.

 

[Lime]

I agree with biffvernon regarding fit.
Surely one of the aspects that hasn't been discussed and which is very important, do you like the windows?
If you like the windows then a problem of their timing will be forgotten about in years to come or be a conversation piece at dinner.
Perhaps biffvernon is right that you would have been better off going to Jewsons/Everest/The Acme Plastic Company if timing, delivery and fit (ie they go in the hole first time) is of prime importance but I think there are plenty who would complain about those companies too.... and you would have had to pay up front for a mass produced product.

 

[glayzell]

When measuring old buildings (and new ones, come to think of it) the holes in walls are never square and my windows probably aren't square either in a precise mathematical sense. The trick is to get a tight fit. It's better to be a bit tight and have to plane a bit off at the pinch points than to have gaping gaps that need to be filled with bucket-fulls of mortar or expanding foam (don't go there). Of course if there has been a mis-measurement, then its the fault of whoever read the tape measure (usually me).

quote]

I appreciate this. the winows they supplied were for brand new openings and the block/brick work is spot on. They measured them with a 10mm gap either side.

I didnt mention earlier that they also supplied 2 sashes to go in an existing frame. They didnt fit either, but i expexted that as the frame was out of square. I knew i would have to plane them to fit, which i have done. No complaints there. This had been discussed prior as well.

Regarding the delay. I know it takes time to make them, but 2 months to come out and measure (which i though they had done during the initial site visit in feb)? Then a further 2 months to make them is a bit of a joke dont you think? Especially as i know the windows were made inside 4 weeks and sat around in the workshop for a further month waiting for glass.

Of course timing, delivery and fit are important other wise i would have late poorly fitting windows, and that isnt what i am paying 15 grand for. Especially when i was given assurances that they would be a priotiy and would have a nice gap to allow for good fitting. I dont think i am being unreasonable.

And yes i like the windows, they look lovely, the only complaint there is the centre bars on the sashes dont meet and leave a step on one of the box sashes, i dont know if i will get a catch to fit.

 

[Ian Bond]

Meeting rails not level? How much are they out by - a little step is OK with some fasteners:

If they're overlapping too much, then you can plane a rail - I've just trimmed the top rail of the upper sash due to a similar problem.

If too short, then that's trickier. You could trying packing the top rail to make up the difference. Or packing under the fastener on the meeting rail (could look nasty).

Better to have made the sashes slightly too big to allow for trimming and fitting than too small.

I agree with the earlier comments about minor trimming being acceptable, even desirable in some cases to get a good fit in an awkward opening.

It sounds as though the company have taken on more work than they can handle. But I don't think that you are being unreasonable here, providing you've let them know what the problems are and given them an opportunity to put it right.

Hope it gets sorted out to your satisfaction.

 

[glayzell]

just a quick update,

I have recieved a letter from them with a figue for the windows they have supplied and they have said 'out of good will' they wont charge me for anything they have started on the others. The figure looks a bit steep, but i have lined someone else up, who is reliable and who my window fitter uses (who subsequently is also my best friend and was my best man- so not just 'the window fitter'). I will just have to swallow the extra, they have obviously loaded up the cost of the windows they have supplied.

I have decided to call it a day with the company.

In the letter they accepted some responsibility for not supplying a door, but not another door and double door. They also said the windows didnt fit as the openings were out of square. They werent, when they measured they said they werent and the fitter said the openings were good. However, i will gain nothing from arguing this point further.

at least i know where i stand and how much i have to pay. I am pleased that we seem to have an amicable result.

 

[Ian Bond]

If the sashes are too small for the window, that's harder to excuse, thinking about it.

You shouldn't have to pack newly made sashes to fit, and if they are way out then I'd ask for them to be remade properly.

Perhaps next time they'll measure up properly

 

[Ian Bond]

Doh - should have left it all to your mate in the first place :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Fair enough, life's too short - but I feel sorry for their next customer.

 

[Pford75]

Glad it sorted.

I understand Biff's point about contracts....but I'm really surprised that people will spend big sums of money (£15k in your case) without something in writing....this is a similar figure to the cost of a family car and I wouldn't expect anyone to purchase a car without knowing the exact spec, equipment etc.

The point is that it is also to protect the vendor as well - £15k represents a big chunk of business to them and not confirming in writing what it is that they are supplying to you feels very sloppy to me. Taking Biff's point, if a craftsman refused to confirm in writing the products they were supplying to me for 15 thousand of my hard earned pounds, i don't care how lovely their windows are...i'd run a mile. I'd probably turn down some great craftsmen as a result, but then I'm not running the risk of being £15k out of pocket.

 

[Penners]

at least i know where i stand and how much i have to pay. I am pleased that we seem to have an amicable result.

I'm glad that you've found a way out of your problem without too much blood on the carpet. And I think you're wise to adopt a philosophical attitude. When things get into this kind of mess, it's invariably best just to rescue what you can from the situation, and then walk away, without leaving too much ill-will behind you.